Discussion:
My first bike: Helmet & California License Question
(too old to reply)
Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
2007-09-02 04:49:46 UTC
Permalink
I just bought my first bike and may I ask two questions I can't seem to get
the answer from my brother on?

The first question is about HELMETS for beginners.

What's the difference between Snell full face helmets Shoei or Simpsons or
HJC or whatever? My brother says Shoei is the best but he can't tell me
why. As long as it's Snell, how can I tell the difference between a 125
dollar HJC from a 500 dollar Shoei? They both look, fit, and feel the same
to me in the store and I borrowed my brother' Shoei which didn't fit and it
was horrid.

What REALLY is the TRUE difference (please remove advertising and marketing
from this discussion) between a Snell Shoei and a Snell Simpsons and a
Snell Bell from a cheaper Snell HJC (full face only).

The second question is about the California license. My brother said to not
even think about taking the dumb California DMV motorcycle driving test
saying the DMV designed that test just to make me pay the money to take the
MSF class even though I'm in my mid twenties and don't have to take the
class by law. He didn't take the class because he got his license when we
lived down south, but I never had a license.

Where do I get the information to take the MSF class?
muddy cat
2007-09-02 05:19:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
I just bought my first bike and may I ask two questions I can't seem to get
the answer from my brother on?
The first question is about HELMETS for beginners.
It's all about fit, comfort and wear. The $90 Bell will protect you as
well as a $400 arai but the arai will feel better on your head and last
much longer.
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
Where do I get the information to take the MSF class?
Try this for a start.

http://www.ca-msp.org/

Welcome to two wheels, have fun.
David White
2007-09-02 05:20:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
I just bought my first bike and may I ask two questions I can't seem to get
the answer from my brother on?
The first question is about HELMETS for beginners.
What's the difference between Snell full face helmets Shoei or Simpsons or
HJC or whatever? My brother says Shoei is the best but he can't tell me
why. As long as it's Snell, how can I tell the difference between a 125
dollar HJC from a 500 dollar Shoei? They both look, fit, and feel the same
to me in the store and I borrowed my brother' Shoei which didn't fit and it
was horrid.
What REALLY is the TRUE difference (please remove advertising and marketing
from this discussion) between a Snell Shoei and a Snell Simpsons and a
Snell Bell from a cheaper Snell HJC (full face only).
The second question is about the California license. My brother said to not
even think about taking the dumb California DMV motorcycle driving test
saying the DMV designed that test just to make me pay the money to take the
MSF class even though I'm in my mid twenties and don't have to take the
class by law. He didn't take the class because he got his license when we
lived down south, but I never had a license.
Where do I get the information to take the MSF class?
The first part of your post I will leave to those who like to argue
about which helmet is the best and why. As for the second part, you can
go to www.ca-msp.org or www.msf-usa.org to find out any information you
will need to find a local training site in California.
Stupendous Man
2007-09-02 05:31:48 UTC
Permalink
The difference between better grade helmet brands is the fit and styling.
Some are for round skulls, some for pear, etc. Try on lots of helmets until
you find one you like, then buy the same model and size cheaper online.

Take the MSF course. It can't hurt you to know more about riding, and you
won't have to do the dreaded "lollipop test"
--
--
Stupendous Man
Defender of Liberty, Advocate of Justice
Patti Beadles
2007-09-02 05:34:56 UTC
Permalink
In terms of safety, Snell full-face helmets are pretty much all
the same. And helmets for beginners are exactly the same as
helmets for racers. The only real difference is that expensive
one typically have lots of vents and whizbang features. You'll
be perfectly OK starting with a cheaper helmet if you'd like.

If you're not already an experienced rider, I highly recommend
that you not do anything beyond sitting on the bike and making
vroom vroom noises in the driveway without taking the MSF class.
Not only does it save you from the ridiculous keyhole test, but
it will give you extremely valuable accident-avoidance skills in
an environment free of idiot-piloted SUVs. Wouldn't you rather
learn to panic stop before your life depends on it?

Soooooo, now the important thing... what'd you get?

-Patti
--
Patti Beadles, Oakland, CA |
pattib~pattib.org | All religions are equally
http://www.pattib.org/ | ludicrous, and should be ridiculed
www.urbanscapephoto.com | as often as possible. C. Bond
Bob
2007-09-02 06:56:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patti Beadles
In terms of safety, Snell full-face helmets are pretty much all
the same. And helmets for beginners are exactly the same as
helmets for racers. The only real difference is that expensive
one typically have lots of vents and whizbang features. You'll
be perfectly OK starting with a cheaper helmet if you'd like.
If you're not already an experienced rider, I highly recommend
that you not do anything beyond sitting on the bike and making
vroom vroom noises in the driveway without taking the MSF class.
Not only does it save you from the ridiculous keyhole test, but
it will give you extremely valuable accident-avoidance skills in
an environment free of idiot-piloted SUVs. Wouldn't you rather
learn to panic stop before your life depends on it?
Soooooo, now the important thing... what'd you get?
-Patti
--
Patti Beadles, Oakland, CA |
pattib~pattib.org | All religions are equally
http://www.pattib.org/ | ludicrous, and should be ridiculed
www.urbanscapephoto.com | as often as possible. C. Bond
Great advice, Patti. I hope, too, that she does ZERO riding until it's
during the MSF course.

I also highly recommend the Ride Like A Pro video. It teaches what the
motorcycle cops learn -- with emphasis on "head AND eyes pointed where you
want to go" and the low speed techniques utilizing the "friction zone" and
the rear brake.

www.ridelikeapro.com

Bob
Beav
2007-09-02 19:39:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by Patti Beadles
In terms of safety, Snell full-face helmets are pretty much all
the same. And helmets for beginners are exactly the same as
helmets for racers. The only real difference is that expensive
one typically have lots of vents and whizbang features. You'll
be perfectly OK starting with a cheaper helmet if you'd like.
If you're not already an experienced rider, I highly recommend
that you not do anything beyond sitting on the bike and making
vroom vroom noises in the driveway without taking the MSF class.
Not only does it save you from the ridiculous keyhole test, but
it will give you extremely valuable accident-avoidance skills in
an environment free of idiot-piloted SUVs. Wouldn't you rather
learn to panic stop before your life depends on it?
Soooooo, now the important thing... what'd you get?
-Patti
--
Patti Beadles, Oakland, CA |
pattib~pattib.org | All religions are equally
http://www.pattib.org/ | ludicrous, and should be ridiculed
www.urbanscapephoto.com | as often as possible. C. Bond
Great advice, Patti. I hope, too, that she does ZERO riding until it's
during the MSF course.
I also highly recommend the Ride Like A Pro video. It teaches what the
motorcycle cops learn -- with emphasis on "head AND eyes pointed where you
want to go" and the low speed techniques utilizing the "friction zone" and
the rear brake.
Never heard anything so daft in my life. No-one ever learned how to ride a
motorcycle by sitting in front of the TV watching a fucking DVD, they
learned by getting on a bike.

If the OP's brother is a rider, then he could giver some intital instruction
in the basics, after which she could gain some experience by pootling about.
--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19
Bob
2007-09-02 22:11:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beav
Never heard anything so daft in my life. No-one ever learned how to ride a
motorcycle by sitting in front of the TV watching a fucking DVD, they
learned by getting on a bike.
If the OP's brother is a rider, then he could giver some intital
instruction in the basics, after which she could gain some experience by
pootling about.
--
Beav
You don't learn just watching any DVD. You learn by practicing the exercises
and following the techniques outlined in the DVD. The www.ridelikeapro.com
DVD makes you aware of these techniques and outlines the exercises that
utilize them.

In the few posts I've read of yours, you always manage to show what a real
idiot you are. Try thinking before you post and you'll win some respect.

Bob
Timberwoof
2007-09-02 22:15:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by Beav
Never heard anything so daft in my life. No-one ever learned how to ride a
motorcycle by sitting in front of the TV watching a fucking DVD, they
learned by getting on a bike.
If the OP's brother is a rider, then he could giver some intital
instruction in the basics, after which she could gain some experience by
pootling about.
--
Beav
You don't learn just watching any DVD. You learn by practicing the exercises
and following the techniques outlined in the DVD. The www.ridelikeapro.com
DVD makes you aware of these techniques and outlines the exercises that
utilize them.
And if you rub the DVD just the right way, a genie will pop out of the
hole in the middle. He will critique your technique.
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com>
faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml
It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you.
Ken Abrams
2007-09-02 22:56:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timberwoof
And if you rub the DVD just the right way, a genie will pop out of the
hole in the middle. He will critique your technique.
Which technique would that be, riding or rubbing ? ;-)
Beav
2007-09-03 20:55:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Abrams
Post by Timberwoof
And if you rub the DVD just the right way, a genie will pop out of the
hole in the middle. He will critique your technique.
Which technique would that be, riding or rubbing ? ;-)
"Bobbing".
--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19
David White
2007-09-04 02:37:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timberwoof
Post by Bob
Post by Beav
Never heard anything so daft in my life. No-one ever learned how to ride a
motorcycle by sitting in front of the TV watching a fucking DVD, they
learned by getting on a bike.
If the OP's brother is a rider, then he could giver some intital
instruction in the basics, after which she could gain some experience by
pootling about.
--
Beav
You don't learn just watching any DVD. You learn by practicing the exercises
and following the techniques outlined in the DVD. The www.ridelikeapro.com
DVD makes you aware of these techniques and outlines the exercises that
utilize them.
And if you rub the DVD just the right way, a genie will pop out of the
hole in the middle. He will critique your technique.
So, you named your's DVD?
Beav
2007-09-03 20:51:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by Beav
Never heard anything so daft in my life. No-one ever learned how to ride
a motorcycle by sitting in front of the TV watching a fucking DVD, they
learned by getting on a bike.
If the OP's brother is a rider, then he could giver some intital
instruction in the basics, after which she could gain some experience by
pootling about.
--
Beav
You don't learn just watching any DVD. You learn by practicing the
exercises and following the techniques outlined in the DVD.
So what's all this...." I highly recommend that you not do anything beyond
sitting on the bike and making vroom vroom noises in the driveway without
taking the MSF class." about?


The www.ridelikeapro.com
Post by Bob
DVD makes you aware of these techniques and outlines the exercises that
utilize them.
In the few posts I've read of yours, you always manage to show what a real
idiot you are. Try thinking before you post and you'll win some respect.
If winning respect from you is something I crave, you'd be the last to know.
You pump out bullshit advice and then try to say you didn't. You don't fool
anyone.
--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19
Timberwoof
2007-09-03 21:48:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beav
Post by Bob
Post by Beav
Never heard anything so daft in my life. No-one ever learned how to ride
a motorcycle by sitting in front of the TV watching a fucking DVD, they
learned by getting on a bike.
If the OP's brother is a rider, then he could giver some intital
instruction in the basics, after which she could gain some experience by
pootling about.
--
Beav
You don't learn just watching any DVD. You learn by practicing the
exercises and following the techniques outlined in the DVD.
So what's all this...." I highly recommend that you not do anything beyond
sitting on the bike and making vroom vroom noises in the driveway without
taking the MSF class." about?
It's about making sure that whoever teaches you teaches the right stuff
and gives worthwhile critique on technique.
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com>
faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml
It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you.
Bob
2007-09-04 00:35:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beav
So what's all this...." I highly recommend that you not do anything beyond
sitting on the bike and making vroom vroom noises in the driveway without
taking the MSF class." about?
You need help with your reading comprehension.

Bob
Beav
2007-09-04 20:17:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob
Post by Beav
So what's all this...." I highly recommend that you not do anything
beyond sitting on the bike and making vroom vroom noises in the driveway
without taking the MSF class." about?
You need help with your reading comprehension.
Ok, have it your way.
--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19
Timberwoof
2007-09-02 22:14:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beav
Post by Bob
Post by Patti Beadles
In terms of safety, Snell full-face helmets are pretty much all
the same. And helmets for beginners are exactly the same as
helmets for racers. The only real difference is that expensive
one typically have lots of vents and whizbang features. You'll
be perfectly OK starting with a cheaper helmet if you'd like.
If you're not already an experienced rider, I highly recommend
that you not do anything beyond sitting on the bike and making
vroom vroom noises in the driveway without taking the MSF class.
Not only does it save you from the ridiculous keyhole test, but
it will give you extremely valuable accident-avoidance skills in
an environment free of idiot-piloted SUVs. Wouldn't you rather
learn to panic stop before your life depends on it?
Soooooo, now the important thing... what'd you get?
-Patti
--
Patti Beadles, Oakland, CA |
pattib~pattib.org | All religions are equally
http://www.pattib.org/ | ludicrous, and should be ridiculed
www.urbanscapephoto.com | as often as possible. C. Bond
Great advice, Patti. I hope, too, that she does ZERO riding until it's
during the MSF course.
I also highly recommend the Ride Like A Pro video. It teaches what the
motorcycle cops learn -- with emphasis on "head AND eyes pointed where you
want to go" and the low speed techniques utilizing the "friction zone" and
the rear brake.
Never heard anything so daft in my life. No-one ever learned how to ride a
motorcycle by sitting in front of the TV watching a fucking DVD, they
learned by getting on a bike.
I agree.
Post by Beav
If the OP's brother is a rider, then he could giver some intital instruction
in the basics, after which she could gain some experience by pootling about.
Uh ... Brother might be a good rider, but how much experience does he
have teaching riding? How do you know that an experienced rider's idea
of "basic" is appropriate?

Just take the MSF class. :-)
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com>
faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml
It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you.
Beav
2007-09-03 20:56:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timberwoof
Post by Beav
Post by Bob
Post by Patti Beadles
In terms of safety, Snell full-face helmets are pretty much all
the same. And helmets for beginners are exactly the same as
helmets for racers. The only real difference is that expensive
one typically have lots of vents and whizbang features. You'll
be perfectly OK starting with a cheaper helmet if you'd like.
If you're not already an experienced rider, I highly recommend
that you not do anything beyond sitting on the bike and making
vroom vroom noises in the driveway without taking the MSF class.
Not only does it save you from the ridiculous keyhole test, but
it will give you extremely valuable accident-avoidance skills in
an environment free of idiot-piloted SUVs. Wouldn't you rather
learn to panic stop before your life depends on it?
Soooooo, now the important thing... what'd you get?
-Patti
--
Patti Beadles, Oakland, CA |
pattib~pattib.org | All religions are equally
http://www.pattib.org/ | ludicrous, and should be ridiculed
www.urbanscapephoto.com | as often as possible. C. Bond
Great advice, Patti. I hope, too, that she does ZERO riding until it's
during the MSF course.
I also highly recommend the Ride Like A Pro video. It teaches what the
motorcycle cops learn -- with emphasis on "head AND eyes pointed where you
want to go" and the low speed techniques utilizing the "friction zone" and
the rear brake.
Never heard anything so daft in my life. No-one ever learned how to ride a
motorcycle by sitting in front of the TV watching a fucking DVD, they
learned by getting on a bike.
I agree.
Post by Beav
If the OP's brother is a rider, then he could giver some intital instruction
in the basics, after which she could gain some experience by pootling about.
Uh ... Brother might be a good rider, but how much experience does he
have teaching riding?
Well I don't, but he's probably a caring person :-)

How do you know that an experienced rider's idea
Post by Timberwoof
of "basic" is appropriate?
He's her brother, so he'll treat her like a baby and take great care not to
steer her up a rough road. At least I hope he would and anything's better
than an absolute noob trying things on her own with NO help.
Post by Timberwoof
Just take the MSF class. :-)
Indeed, but if she's got to wait for a class, some parking lot riding (with
the help of her bro) probably wouldn't hurt.
--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19
David White
2007-09-04 02:51:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beav
Post by Timberwoof
Post by Beav
Post by Bob
Post by Patti Beadles
In terms of safety, Snell full-face helmets are pretty much all
the same. And helmets for beginners are exactly the same as
helmets for racers. The only real difference is that expensive
one typically have lots of vents and whizbang features. You'll
be perfectly OK starting with a cheaper helmet if you'd like.
If you're not already an experienced rider, I highly recommend
that you not do anything beyond sitting on the bike and making
vroom vroom noises in the driveway without taking the MSF class.
Not only does it save you from the ridiculous keyhole test, but
it will give you extremely valuable accident-avoidance skills in
an environment free of idiot-piloted SUVs. Wouldn't you rather
learn to panic stop before your life depends on it?
Soooooo, now the important thing... what'd you get?
-Patti
--
Patti Beadles, Oakland, CA |
pattib~pattib.org | All religions are equally
http://www.pattib.org/ | ludicrous, and should be ridiculed
www.urbanscapephoto.com | as often as possible. C. Bond
Great advice, Patti. I hope, too, that she does ZERO riding until it's
during the MSF course.
I also highly recommend the Ride Like A Pro video. It teaches what the
motorcycle cops learn -- with emphasis on "head AND eyes pointed where you
want to go" and the low speed techniques utilizing the "friction zone" and
the rear brake.
Never heard anything so daft in my life. No-one ever learned how to ride a
motorcycle by sitting in front of the TV watching a fucking DVD, they
learned by getting on a bike.
I agree.
Post by Beav
If the OP's brother is a rider, then he could giver some intital instruction
in the basics, after which she could gain some experience by pootling about.
Uh ... Brother might be a good rider, but how much experience does he
have teaching riding?
Well I don't, but he's probably a caring person :-)
How do you know that an experienced rider's idea
Post by Timberwoof
of "basic" is appropriate?
He's her brother, so he'll treat her like a baby and take great care not to
steer her up a rough road. At least I hope he would and anything's better
than an absolute noob trying things on her own with NO help.
Post by Timberwoof
Just take the MSF class. :-)
Indeed, but if she's got to wait for a class, some parking lot riding (with
the help of her bro) probably wouldn't hurt.
It could do far more harm than good. He might be a so-called
"experienced" rider that is completely full of extremely bad habits. I
have had many of these come through our range, and they are very hard to
deal with and it is very hard to get them to change their bad habits and
do things correctly. Leaning, counter-steering, using proper
counter-weight techniques, turning their heads, proper braking are
difficult to teach when they have been doing it differently for a while.

We teach the students to use all four fingers on the front brake for
better control and to keep their fingers from getting hurt in the event
that the bike goes over. When someone with any dirt-bike experience
comes through the BRC, it is next to impossible to get them to use all
fingers when they have been using only two for a long time.
HardWorkingDog
2007-09-04 03:17:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by David White
We teach the students to use all four fingers on the front brake for
better control and to keep their fingers from getting hurt in the event
that the bike goes over. When someone with any dirt-bike experience
comes through the BRC, it is next to impossible to get them to use all
fingers when they have been using only two for a long time.
I'm sure you're doing an excellent job, but the 4 finger thing is
baloney :)

It doesn't provide better braking or clutch control, and there is no
significant safety advantage. You need to be able to keep control of
the throttle and hold on to the handle bars for steering input at all
times, which requires at least 2 fingers (counting the thumb) on the
bar grips at all times.

I don't think this needs to become a critique of the MSF course; it
has enough other pressures trying to tear it apart already. I do think
the MSF is a good thing, in general.

I suspect the reason you can't get dirt-bikers to use 4 fingers on the
front brake is because they know how to stop the bike perfectly well
with 2 fingers...
--
Charles
'99 YZ250
David White
2007-09-04 03:39:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by HardWorkingDog
Post by David White
We teach the students to use all four fingers on the front brake for
better control and to keep their fingers from getting hurt in the event
that the bike goes over. When someone with any dirt-bike experience
comes through the BRC, it is next to impossible to get them to use all
fingers when they have been using only two for a long time.
I'm sure you're doing an excellent job, but the 4 finger thing is
baloney :)
It doesn't provide better braking or clutch control, and there is no
significant safety advantage. You need to be able to keep control of
the throttle and hold on to the handle bars for steering input at all
times, which requires at least 2 fingers (counting the thumb) on the
bar grips at all times.
That is a load of crap. If your braking, you had better not need to
worry about steering. Try to brake hard and steer at the same time. I
bet you'll be picking yourself up off the pavement. And if you still
have two fingers under the brake lever when that happens, I hope you
fall to the left because you will most likely break your ring finger and
pinky if you go down to the right. And if you are braking, you need to
be rolling off the throttle, which is all but impossible if you have
your fingers still wrapped around it. I don't know about you but, I have
perfect control of my handlebars and throttle when I use all four
fingers to brake or use the clutch.
Post by HardWorkingDog
I don't think this needs to become a critique of the MSF course; it
has enough other pressures trying to tear it apart already. I do think
the MSF is a good thing, in general.
I suspect the reason you can't get dirt-bikers to use 4 fingers on the
front brake is because they know how to stop the bike perfectly well
with 2 fingers...
It is my experiance with dirt-bike riders that they have trouble with
any of the exercises that include quick stopping due to the fact that
they can't roll off the throttle quickly and don't use proper braking
technique.
HardWorkingDog
2007-09-04 04:42:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by David White
Post by HardWorkingDog
Post by David White
We teach the students to use all four fingers on the front brake for
better control and to keep their fingers from getting hurt in the event
that the bike goes over. When someone with any dirt-bike experience
comes through the BRC, it is next to impossible to get them to use all
fingers when they have been using only two for a long time.
I'm sure you're doing an excellent job, but the 4 finger thing is
baloney :)
It doesn't provide better braking or clutch control, and there is no
significant safety advantage. You need to be able to keep control of
the throttle and hold on to the handle bars for steering input at all
times, which requires at least 2 fingers (counting the thumb) on the
bar grips at all times.
That is a load of crap. If your braking, you had better not need to
worry about steering. Try to brake hard and steer at the same time.
??? I do that every time I ride.

(note: steering is not equal to turning; steering is controlling the
direction of the bike) Like I said, I don't want this to turn into a
critique of the MSF BRC. I think the MSF is a good thing, in general,
if you don't mind me repeating myself.
Post by David White
I
bet you'll be picking yourself up off the pavement. And if you still
have two fingers under the brake lever when that happens, I hope you
fall to the left because you will most likely break your ring finger and
pinky if you go down to the right.
<sigh>
Post by David White
And if you are braking, you need to
be rolling off the throttle, which is all but impossible if you have
your fingers still wrapped around it. I don't know about you but, I have
perfect control of my handlebars and throttle when I use all four
fingers to brake or use the clutch.
Good control, that's what's important.
Post by David White
Post by HardWorkingDog
I don't think this needs to become a critique of the MSF course; it
has enough other pressures trying to tear it apart already. I do think
the MSF is a good thing, in general.
I suspect the reason you can't get dirt-bikers to use 4 fingers on the
front brake is because they know how to stop the bike perfectly well
with 2 fingers...
It is my experiance with dirt-bike riders that they have trouble with
any of the exercises that include quick stopping due to the fact that
they can't roll off the throttle quickly and don't use proper braking
technique.
And perhaps that they have little experience with how well street
tires adhere to pavement. We can all afford to learn something new
each day. My best wishes to your efforts to help riders ride safely
and well.
--
Charles
'99 YZ250
unknown
2007-09-04 12:38:02 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 20:39:44 -0700, David White <***@ca.rr.com>
wrote:

...
Post by David White
Post by HardWorkingDog
It doesn't provide better braking or clutch control, and there is no
significant safety advantage. You need to be able to keep control of
the throttle and hold on to the handle bars for steering input at all
times, which requires at least 2 fingers (counting the thumb) on the
bar grips at all times.
That is a load of crap. If your braking, you had better not need to
worry about steering. Try to brake hard .....
THAT is the load of crap! Braking and "brake hard" are different
things. 99.999% of my braking is not hard -- that is why you're
supposed to be looking ahead, so you will not have to brake hard. If
you are no where near the edge of performance it is perfectly
acceptable to brake in turns, turn while braking, shift gears,
whatever. If you are braking you likely will be downshifting as well,
and that requires a blip of the throttle for smoothness.
Beav
2007-09-04 20:24:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by David White
We teach the students to use all four fingers on the front brake for
better control and to keep their fingers from getting hurt in the event
that the bike goes over. When someone with any dirt-bike experience
comes through the BRC, it is next to impossible to get them to use all
fingers when they have been using only two for a long time.
I'm sure you're doing an excellent job, but the 4 finger thing is baloney
:)
It doesn't provide better braking or clutch control, and there is no
significant safety advantage. You need to be able to keep control of the
throttle and hold on to the handle bars for steering input at all times,
which requires at least 2 fingers (counting the thumb) on the bar grips
at all times.
That is a load of crap. If your braking, you had better not need to worry
about steering. Try to brake hard and steer at the same time.
Do you actually RIDE a motorcycle?

I
bet you'll be picking yourself up off the pavement.
Oh yeah, every fucking day of the week.

And if you still
have two fingers under the brake lever when that happens, I hope you fall
to the left because you will most likely break your ring finger and pinky
if you go down to the right. And if you are braking, you need to be
rolling off the throttle, which is all but impossible if you have your
fingers still wrapped around it.
All but impossible my arse.
I don't know about you but, I have perfect control of my handlebars and
throttle when I use all four fingers to brake or use the clutch.
We're not all the same y'know.
I don't think this needs to become a critique of the MSF course; it has
enough other pressures trying to tear it apart already. I do think the
MSF is a good thing, in general.
I suspect the reason you can't get dirt-bikers to use 4 fingers on the
front brake is because they know how to stop the bike perfectly well with
2 fingers...
It is my experiance with dirt-bike riders that they have trouble with any
of the exercises that include quick stopping due to the fact that they
can't roll off the throttle quickly and don't use proper braking
technique.
Let me just clean up. I just hurled all over the desk.
--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19
David White
2007-09-04 21:04:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beav
Post by David White
We teach the students to use all four fingers on the front brake for
better control and to keep their fingers from getting hurt in the event
that the bike goes over. When someone with any dirt-bike experience
comes through the BRC, it is next to impossible to get them to use all
fingers when they have been using only two for a long time.
I'm sure you're doing an excellent job, but the 4 finger thing is baloney
:)
It doesn't provide better braking or clutch control, and there is no
significant safety advantage. You need to be able to keep control of the
throttle and hold on to the handle bars for steering input at all times,
which requires at least 2 fingers (counting the thumb) on the bar grips
at all times.
That is a load of crap. If your braking, you had better not need to worry
about steering. Try to brake hard and steer at the same time.
Do you actually RIDE a motorcycle?
I
bet you'll be picking yourself up off the pavement.
Oh yeah, every fucking day of the week.
And if you still
have two fingers under the brake lever when that happens, I hope you fall
to the left because you will most likely break your ring finger and pinky
if you go down to the right. And if you are braking, you need to be
rolling off the throttle, which is all but impossible if you have your
fingers still wrapped around it.
All but impossible my arse.
I don't know about you but, I have perfect control of my handlebars and
throttle when I use all four fingers to brake or use the clutch.
We're not all the same y'know.
I don't think this needs to become a critique of the MSF course; it has
enough other pressures trying to tear it apart already. I do think the
MSF is a good thing, in general.
I suspect the reason you can't get dirt-bikers to use 4 fingers on the
front brake is because they know how to stop the bike perfectly well with
2 fingers...
It is my experiance with dirt-bike riders that they have trouble with any
of the exercises that include quick stopping due to the fact that they
can't roll off the throttle quickly and don't use proper braking
technique.
Let me just clean up. I just hurled all over the desk.
I invite you to come on out to the range and see for yourself.
Beav
2007-09-04 20:19:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beav
Post by Timberwoof
Post by Beav
Post by Bob
Post by Patti Beadles
In terms of safety, Snell full-face helmets are pretty much all
the same. And helmets for beginners are exactly the same as
helmets for racers. The only real difference is that expensive
one typically have lots of vents and whizbang features. You'll
be perfectly OK starting with a cheaper helmet if you'd like.
If you're not already an experienced rider, I highly recommend
that you not do anything beyond sitting on the bike and making
vroom vroom noises in the driveway without taking the MSF class.
Not only does it save you from the ridiculous keyhole test, but
it will give you extremely valuable accident-avoidance skills in
an environment free of idiot-piloted SUVs. Wouldn't you rather
learn to panic stop before your life depends on it?
Soooooo, now the important thing... what'd you get?
-Patti
--
Patti Beadles, Oakland, CA |
pattib~pattib.org | All religions are equally
http://www.pattib.org/ | ludicrous, and should be ridiculed
www.urbanscapephoto.com | as often as possible. C. Bond
Great advice, Patti. I hope, too, that she does ZERO riding until it's
during the MSF course.
I also highly recommend the Ride Like A Pro video. It teaches what the
motorcycle cops learn -- with emphasis on "head AND eyes pointed where you
want to go" and the low speed techniques utilizing the "friction zone" and
the rear brake.
Never heard anything so daft in my life. No-one ever learned how to ride a
motorcycle by sitting in front of the TV watching a fucking DVD, they
learned by getting on a bike.
I agree.
Post by Beav
If the OP's brother is a rider, then he could giver some intital instruction
in the basics, after which she could gain some experience by pootling about.
Uh ... Brother might be a good rider, but how much experience does he
have teaching riding?
Well I don't, but he's probably a caring person :-)
How do you know that an experienced rider's idea
Post by Timberwoof
of "basic" is appropriate?
He's her brother, so he'll treat her like a baby and take great care not
to steer her up a rough road. At least I hope he would and anything's
better than an absolute noob trying things on her own with NO help.
Post by Timberwoof
Just take the MSF class. :-)
Indeed, but if she's got to wait for a class, some parking lot riding
(with the help of her bro) probably wouldn't hurt.
It could do far more harm than good. He might be a so-called "experienced"
rider that is completely full of extremely bad habits. I have had many of
these come through our range, and they are very hard to deal with and it
is very hard to get them to change their bad habits and do things
correctly. Leaning, counter-steering, using proper counter-weight
techniques, turning their heads, proper braking are difficult to teach
when they have been doing it differently for a while.
We teach the students to use all four fingers on the front brake for
better control and to keep their fingers from getting hurt in the event
that the bike goes over. When someone with any dirt-bike experience comes
through the BRC, it is next to impossible to get them to use all fingers
when they have been using only two for a long time.
Yeah, them out of control dirt bike riders. What CAN one do with them?
--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19
Turby
2007-09-03 16:58:10 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 19:39:54 GMT, "Beav"
Post by Beav
If the OP's brother is a rider, then he could giver some intital instruction
in the basics, after which she could gain some experience by pootling about.
People who have never taken a motorcycle class usually have very bad
habits to pass on, (such as the neccessity to "lay it down.") Family
members are especially bad at teaching.
--
Turby the Turbosurfer
Beav
2007-09-03 21:00:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Turby
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 19:39:54 GMT, "Beav"
Post by Beav
If the OP's brother is a rider, then he could giver some intital instruction
in the basics, after which she could gain some experience by pootling about.
People who have never taken a motorcycle class usually have very bad
habits to pass on, (such as the neccessity to "lay it down.") Family
members are especially bad at teaching.
Generally speaking, yeah, but there are exceptions. Brother may well be the
instructor of the year in waiting :-) but I was thinking more along the
lines of "out of the way" instruction (quiet area, parking lots, etc) so the
OP can get to grips with steering and gear changning rather than learning
roadcraft from her bro.
--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19
BrianNZ
2007-09-03 21:25:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Turby
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 19:39:54 GMT, "Beav"
Post by Beav
If the OP's brother is a rider, then he could giver some intital instruction
in the basics, after which she could gain some experience by pootling about.
People who have never taken a motorcycle class usually have very bad
habits to pass on, (such as the neccessity to "lay it down.") Family
members are especially bad at teaching.
I'm showing my boys the basics of how to ride and control a bike.....off
road on trail bikes. I hope they will know how to confidently ride
before they go for their licences and defensive riding courses. At least
this way they will only have to worry about the road rules without the
added distraction of not being confident with the controls.
David White
2007-09-04 03:00:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by BrianNZ
Post by Turby
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 19:39:54 GMT, "Beav"
Post by Beav
If the OP's brother is a rider, then he could giver some intital
instruction in the basics, after which she could gain some experience
by pootling about.
People who have never taken a motorcycle class usually have very bad
habits to pass on, (such as the neccessity to "lay it down.") Family
members are especially bad at teaching.
I'm showing my boys the basics of how to ride and control a bike.....off
road on trail bikes. I hope they will know how to confidently ride
before they go for their licences and defensive riding courses. At least
this way they will only have to worry about the road rules without the
added distraction of not being confident with the controls.
Though I might suggest taking them to the MSF Dirtbike School, as I am
with my daughter, teaching them how ride off-road is far different than
trying to teach them to ride on the road. They are two completely
different animals. But, I have to say, even though I have to work with
dirt riders on changing habits they learned from the trails, they come
into the class with far more confidence and knowledge of the controls
than pure novice riders.
Beav
2007-09-04 20:26:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by David White
Post by BrianNZ
Post by Turby
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 19:39:54 GMT, "Beav"
Post by Beav
If the OP's brother is a rider, then he could giver some intital
instruction in the basics, after which she could gain some experience
by pootling about.
People who have never taken a motorcycle class usually have very bad
habits to pass on, (such as the neccessity to "lay it down.") Family
members are especially bad at teaching.
I'm showing my boys the basics of how to ride and control a bike.....off
road on trail bikes. I hope they will know how to confidently ride before
they go for their licences and defensive riding courses. At least this
way they will only have to worry about the road rules without the added
distraction of not being confident with the controls.
Though I might suggest taking them to the MSF Dirtbike School, as I am
with my daughter, teaching them how ride off-road is far different than
trying to teach them to ride on the road. They are two completely
different animals. But, I have to say, even though I have to work with
dirt riders on changing habits they learned from the trails, they come
into the class with far more confidence and knowledge of the controls than
pure novice riders.
But they can't stop properly. Useless buggers.
--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19
David White
2007-09-04 21:05:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beav
Post by David White
Post by BrianNZ
Post by Turby
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 19:39:54 GMT, "Beav"
Post by Beav
If the OP's brother is a rider, then he could giver some intital
instruction in the basics, after which she could gain some experience
by pootling about.
People who have never taken a motorcycle class usually have very bad
habits to pass on, (such as the neccessity to "lay it down.") Family
members are especially bad at teaching.
I'm showing my boys the basics of how to ride and control a bike.....off
road on trail bikes. I hope they will know how to confidently ride before
they go for their licences and defensive riding courses. At least this
way they will only have to worry about the road rules without the added
distraction of not being confident with the controls.
Though I might suggest taking them to the MSF Dirtbike School, as I am
with my daughter, teaching them how ride off-road is far different than
trying to teach them to ride on the road. They are two completely
different animals. But, I have to say, even though I have to work with
dirt riders on changing habits they learned from the trails, they come
into the class with far more confidence and knowledge of the controls than
pure novice riders.
But they can't stop properly. Useless buggers.
Many of them can't.
BrianNZ
2007-09-04 22:31:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by David White
Post by BrianNZ
Post by Turby
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 19:39:54 GMT, "Beav"
Post by Beav
If the OP's brother is a rider, then he could giver some intital
instruction in the basics, after which she could gain some
experience by pootling about.
People who have never taken a motorcycle class usually have very bad
habits to pass on, (such as the neccessity to "lay it down.") Family
members are especially bad at teaching.
I'm showing my boys the basics of how to ride and control a
bike.....off road on trail bikes. I hope they will know how to
confidently ride before they go for their licences and defensive
riding courses. At least this way they will only have to worry about
the road rules without the added distraction of not being confident
with the controls.
Though I might suggest taking them to the MSF Dirtbike School, as I am
with my daughter, teaching them how ride off-road is far different than
trying to teach them to ride on the road. They are two completely
different animals. But, I have to say, even though I have to work with
dirt riders on changing habits they learned from the trails, they come
into the class with far more confidence and knowledge of the controls
than pure novice riders.
True.....but at the moment it's just riding around bulldozed trails
getting used to the controls, rather than any serious off road riding
(hills, swamps, creek crossings etc.)

When it comes to licence time (car & bike), they can get a learners
permit and just ride around for 6 months before getting their restricted
licence......or attend a defensive riding course and waive the 6 month
waiting period. They will be attending both the bike & car defensive
driving courses even though they are similar.....a double dose might
help it all sink in better.

They have already learnt the 'do as I say, not do as I do' rule....I'm
no role model. :)
David White
2007-09-04 02:53:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Turby
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 19:39:54 GMT, "Beav"
Post by Beav
If the OP's brother is a rider, then he could giver some intital instruction
in the basics, after which she could gain some experience by pootling about.
People who have never taken a motorcycle class usually have very bad
habits to pass on, (such as the neccessity to "lay it down.") Family
members are especially bad at teaching.
the only reason I teach my wife is that, I am an MSF RiderCoach. If I
were not, I would not teach any of my family members, nor anyone for
that matter.
David White
2007-09-04 02:35:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beav
Post by Bob
I also highly recommend the Ride Like A Pro video. It teaches what the
motorcycle cops learn -- with emphasis on "head AND eyes pointed where you
want to go" and the low speed techniques utilizing the "friction zone" and
the rear brake.
Never heard anything so daft in my life. No-one ever learned how to ride a
motorcycle by sitting in front of the TV watching a fucking DVD, they
learned by getting on a bike.
If the OP's brother is a rider, then he could giver some intital instruction
in the basics, after which she could gain some experience by pootling about.
Um, you taken an MSF course lately? If not, would it surprise you to
find out that we do include the watching of "DVD's" as part of the
classroom portion of the BRC? It helps to visually reinforce what we
just went over in class. And several of these "Training-aids" talk about
(and show) techniques that we will be working on when we take to the range.

If you think that the OP's brother can give her some instruction in the
"basics", why have her take the MSF BasicRider Course? We tell the
students that what they take from the course is just the basics and they
should in no way consider themselves expert riders. We try to make them
understand that they need to get lots of practice, and work on becoming
a proficient rider.

In trying to teach her the so-called basics, what if he (not being a
trained instructor) showed her incorrectly, or showed her the use of bad
habits that might get her hurt? I do work with my wife on her riding
but, if I were not an experienced MSF riderCoach, I would not be doing
so.
Bill Palmer
2007-09-04 05:35:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by David White
If you think that the OP's brother can give her some instruction in the
"basics", why have her take the MSF BasicRider Course?
I don't want this to turn into a critique of the MSF class but I took both
the dumb-ass California DMV lollipop course (and failed twice on my Honda
CBR1000RR) and the MSF basic-rider class (just to get my license).

To give you an idea of how ridiculous the MSF basic rider class is, all 24
students in the class passed even though more than half couldn't even do
the loops inside the u-turn box! Ha. What a joke.

What amazed me was that the DMV test allowed not an inch over the line
whereas the MSF class allows you to miss by a car length and still pass.

What a joke they BOTH are!

If you're a California rider, my advice is find a friend who rides and
trust them and nobody else! Don't even bother to take the ridiculous
California DMV keyhole test. Take the MSF basic rider class but don't take
it seriously. Just do what you're told and shut up and they'll give you the
little card that gets you the license if you just play up to their egos.

It's a sad state of affairs in California that this is the God's honest
truth.
J. Clarke
2007-09-04 14:48:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Palmer
Post by David White
If you think that the OP's brother can give her some instruction in
the "basics", why have her take the MSF BasicRider Course?
I don't want this to turn into a critique of the MSF class but I
took
both the dumb-ass California DMV lollipop course (and failed twice
on
my Honda CBR1000RR) and the MSF basic-rider class (just to get my
license).
To give you an idea of how ridiculous the MSF basic rider class is,
all 24 students in the class passed even though more than half
couldn't even do the loops inside the u-turn box! Ha. What a joke.
What amazed me was that the DMV test allowed not an inch over the line
whereas the MSF class allows you to miss by a car length and still pass.
What a joke they BOTH are!
If you're a California rider, my advice is find a friend who rides and
trust them and nobody else!
You mean like the "friend who rides" who told me to never, ever touch
the front brake lest I die instantly?
Post by Bill Palmer
Don't even bother to take the ridiculous
California DMV keyhole test. Take the MSF basic rider class but
don't
take it seriously. Just do what you're told and shut up and they'll
give you the little card that gets you the license if you just play
up to their egos.
It's a sad state of affairs in California that this is the God's
honest truth.
In an ideal world everyone would have had hundreds of hours of track
time, practicing at high and low speeds, on pavement and dirt,
drilling on emergency procedures, and so on before he ventured onto a
public road. In the real world if you tried to do that nobody would
ride because the training would cost more than the bike.

You seem to be expecting more than can be reasonably delivered in the
time available in the MSF course.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
David White
2007-09-04 16:27:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Palmer
Post by David White
If you think that the OP's brother can give her some instruction in the
"basics", why have her take the MSF BasicRider Course?
I don't want this to turn into a critique of the MSF class but I took both
the dumb-ass California DMV lollipop course (and failed twice on my Honda
CBR1000RR) and the MSF basic-rider class (just to get my license).
But yet, you did turn it into a critique.
Post by Bill Palmer
To give you an idea of how ridiculous the MSF basic rider class is, all 24
students in the class passed even though more than half couldn't even do
the loops inside the u-turn box! Ha. What a joke.
Please explain to me when, and where you are going to use this
technique. It is not as important as the rest of the evaluations, so it
carries less weight. You very well may have been in a class that had a
had a large share of students that had trouble with the U-turn box.It
has been my experience that by the time the evaluations start 75-80% of
the riders can stay within the boundaries of the box. You need to
remember that the majority of the students that take the MSF BasicRider
Course are pure novice riders and have never even sat on a motorcycle,
let alone have the slightest riding experience.
Post by Bill Palmer
What amazed me was that the DMV test allowed not an inch over the line
whereas the MSF class allows you to miss by a car length and still pass.
The other evaluations carry far more weight and include swerving, quick
stopping and proper cornering technique. All you will need to know when
riding on the road and around other traffic. As most of you know, the
number one cause of single vehicle motorcycle accidents is cornering.
Using incorrect cornering technique, or poor cornering judgment. We have
several exercises that try to teach the riders the proper techniques for
cornering, including using proper judgment. we also have an exercise
that attempts to teach the riders the proper technique for quick
stopping in a curve.
Post by Bill Palmer
What a joke they BOTH are!
I can agree with you about the DMV lollipop test being a big joke.
Riding around circles at slow speed is no indication of how your going
to be able to ride on the road.

While it may not be perfect, the MSF BasicRider Course is far better
than anything that is presently on the market today. Between the range
and classroom, there is a lot of information that Novice and experienced
riders call learn something from, if they come into the course with an
open mind.
Post by Bill Palmer
If you're a California rider, my advice is find a friend who rides and
trust them and nobody else!
You mean taking advice from friend who tells you to never use your front
brake?? Just because someone is an experienced rider doesn't mean that
they are experienced teachers, or are teaching bad habits that might get
you hurt, or worse.
Don't even bother to take the ridiculous
Post by Bill Palmer
California DMV keyhole test. Take the MSF basic rider class but don't take
it seriously. Just do what you're told and shut up and they'll give you the
little card that gets you the license if you just play up to their egos.
If that is the attitude you took into the course, I am not a bit
surprised that you took nothing from the course when you were done. I
have taught, or helped teach hundreds of students that have come through
the MSF BRC. I still learn new things from time to time.
Post by Bill Palmer
It's a sad state of affairs in California that this is the God's honest
truth.
And that is just your opinion. I know many people who think just the
opposite.
Dave
2007-09-04 22:32:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Palmer
Post by David White
If you think that the OP's brother can give her some instruction in the
"basics", why have her take the MSF BasicRider Course?
I don't want this to turn into a critique of the MSF class but I took both
the dumb-ass California DMV lollipop course (and failed twice on my Honda
CBR1000RR) and the MSF basic-rider class (just to get my license).
I've ridden motorcycles of one sort or another since I was about 10 years
old. When I moved to Washington State and applied for my license there, I
didn't have a bike, and it didn't occur to me to make sure the motorcycle
endorsement transferred. So, I had to take their test. It is a bullshit
piece of work. Low speed parking lot maneuvers... figure 8's and the like.
I'm sorry but I rarely, NO, I NEVER, find myself in a situation in traffic
which would require or utilize the skills they test for. One would think
that the fact that I've continuously insured a motorcycle for 20 or more
years and am still alive might make one eligible to waive the test but no...

Anyways, I failed that goddamn test twice. I guess I was too proud to
practice their idiotic maneuevers. So I spent a couple of evenings in a
parking lot practicing and proceeded to pass the test.

I've also taken the MSF course (it was a requirement for me to keep my
license at one point but that's a different story) and have nothing but good
things to say about it. Although I've managed to keep myself alive on a
motorcycle over multiple decades, I actually learned some stuff that made me
a better rider... there's some theory stuff that you'd just never guess but
which helps you ride better, safer, even faster. For a completely
inexperienced rider it is a must unless you've got someone who is
technically perfect with infinite patience and time to teach you on their
remote airstrip away from traffic.
Post by Bill Palmer
To give you an idea of how ridiculous the MSF basic rider class is, all 24
students in the class passed even though more than half couldn't even do
the loops inside the u-turn box! Ha. What a joke.
That's not right. This I am sure varies by instructor, there are good ones
and crappy ones. It serves no purpose to either the organization or the
student to pass folks who are not proficient. it's also illegal - the CA
DMV requires proficiency and simply are outsourcing the testing portion to
MSF.
Post by Bill Palmer
If you're a California rider, my advice is find a friend who rides and
trust them and nobody else! Don't even bother to take the ridiculous
California DMV keyhole test. Take the MSF basic rider class but don't take
it seriously. Just do what you're told and shut up and they'll give you the
little card that gets you the license if you just play up to their egos.
Wouldn't it be more productive to approach the course as if you _MIGHT_ just
learn something? You will be given instructional materials and you will be
able to practice... if you decide to be a slack-ass and not bother to use
this time to your advantage it's your loss.

Dave S.
Timberwoof
2007-09-05 00:30:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Palmer
Post by David White
If you think that the OP's brother can give her some instruction in the
"basics", why have her take the MSF BasicRider Course?
I don't want this to turn into a critique of the MSF class but I took both
the dumb-ass California DMV lollipop course (and failed twice on my Honda
CBR1000RR) and the MSF basic-rider class (just to get my license).
To give you an idea of how ridiculous the MSF basic rider class is, all 24
students in the class passed even though more than half couldn't even do
the loops inside the u-turn box! Ha. What a joke.
What amazed me was that the DMV test allowed not an inch over the line
whereas the MSF class allows you to miss by a car length and still pass.
Where did you take this course? The MSF class I took was different from
the one you describe.
Post by Bill Palmer
What a joke they BOTH are!
If you're a California rider, my advice is find a friend who rides and
trust them and nobody else! Don't even bother to take the ridiculous
California DMV keyhole test. Take the MSF basic rider class but don't take
it seriously. Just do what you're told and shut up and they'll give you the
little card that gets you the license if you just play up to their egos.
It's a sad state of affairs in California that this is the God's honest
truth.
Well, that's your honest truth, anyway.
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com>
faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml
It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you.
MayQueen
2007-09-05 06:03:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Palmer
To give you an idea of how ridiculous the MSF basic rider class is, all 24
students in the class passed even though more than half couldn't even do
the loops inside the u-turn box! Ha. What a joke.
I completed the MSF course a few weeks ago and not everyone in the class
passed. And quite a few just barely passed, I consider myself one of
the latter. Just a few more points and I wouldn't have passed.

As someone who had never even been on a bike before, I feel that the
course was a must. I am still not completely confident that I am
qualified to ride in a parking lot, but I'm a lot better prepared than I
would have been had I just hopped on a bike without any help at all.
--
Queenie

*** Be the change you wish to see in the world ***
Fake Name
2007-09-05 11:04:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by MayQueen
I completed the MSF course a few weeks ago and not everyone in the class
passed.
What was the most common problem for those who didn't pass?

Were you very experienced with driving a manual transmission before
the class?
MayQueen
2007-09-05 14:34:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fake Name
Post by MayQueen
I completed the MSF course a few weeks ago and not everyone in the class
passed.
What was the most common problem for those who didn't pass?
Were you very experienced with driving a manual transmission before
the class?
I think the most common problem was control using the friction zone and
smooth throttle control.

One guy in our class was retaking the class and had had the above
problems so had decided to get a scooter instead. He did pass on the
second time around.

I am experienced with driving a manual and I know that some people that
didn't pass were also familiar with manual transmissions.
--
Queenie

*** Be the change you wish to see in the world ***
pinbob
2007-09-06 04:34:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by MayQueen
I completed the MSF course a few weeks ago and not everyone in the class
passed. And quite a few just barely passed, I consider myself one of
the latter. Just a few more points and I wouldn't have passed.
OMG you must be joking. In my ca msf basic rider class, every single person
passed, most having had no experience. Some with a few points to spare but
they couldn't even brake nor corner nor stay in the turning box or even
swerve through the cones or anything. Certainly almost none of them could
handle a liter sized bike at any speed.

Maybe you took a different msf class?

The one I took was two days of two or three hours of "classroom"
instruction where the self indulging so called riding coach kept gloating
about his motorcycle accomplishments mainly what I remember being he rode
in the rain. And then two half days of riding around a huge parking lot the
size of the aircraft carrier hornet where nothing but a passing dog could
possibly be considered an obstruction. By our fourth meeting, we nicknamed
it motorcycle kindergarten, again.

The funniest part was how the "riding coach" kept telling us how "expert"
he was. Having come from a cold weather country, I can assure you that
riding in the rain, even if it was a veritable downpour, does not qualify a
msf coach to declare himself an expert in all things motorcycles. He even
said the reason for shifting weight when encountering obstacles was to
"lower" the center of gravity! Ha!

Besides, he had no clue about the laws regarding lane splitting. He said
you had to do it below 20 mph. Ha! What bullshit he spouted. He insisted we
check the fuel cock even though half the donated bikes didn't even have
one. Ha! What a pompous ass. And I'm supposed to learn biking from him?????

I truly fear for my life if someone passes any california msf class and
rides a bike within a mile of me. At least if they pass the california dmv
riding test, they have to be prove themselves to be absolute experts on
their own bike, not a bunch of kindergarten kids on a rented 200 cc toy.
MayQueen
2007-09-06 15:14:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by pinbob
Post by MayQueen
I completed the MSF course a few weeks ago and not everyone in the class
passed. And quite a few just barely passed, I consider myself one of
the latter. Just a few more points and I wouldn't have passed.
OMG you must be joking. In my ca msf basic rider class, every single person
passed, most having had no experience. Some with a few points to spare but
they couldn't even brake nor corner nor stay in the turning box or even
swerve through the cones or anything. Certainly almost none of them could
handle a liter sized bike at any speed.
Maybe you took a different msf class?
The one I took was two days of two or three hours of "classroom"
instruction where the self indulging so called riding coach kept gloating
about his motorcycle accomplishments mainly what I remember being he rode
in the rain. And then two half days of riding around a huge parking lot the
size of the aircraft carrier hornet where nothing but a passing dog could
possibly be considered an obstruction. By our fourth meeting, we nicknamed
it motorcycle kindergarten, again.
Class was one night in a classroom setting and 2 5-6 hour days of range
riding/learning. The instructors were pretty humble in my opinion.
They did talk about how long they had been riding, but talked about how
they learned on their own with the scars to show for it.

I felt like the instructors really wanted us to learn and be as
competent as possible in such a short time.

I would fear for my life as well riding myself or being near someone
that had just passed the class. I did pass, got my endorsement, but I
in no way feel that I am even a tiny bit qualified to ride on the street
at this point. I will need much more practice in the parking lot for sure.
--
Queenie

*** Be the change you wish to see in the world ***
Beav
2007-09-06 16:25:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by MayQueen
Post by pinbob
Post by MayQueen
I completed the MSF course a few weeks ago and not everyone in the class
passed. And quite a few just barely passed, I consider myself one of
the latter. Just a few more points and I wouldn't have passed.
OMG you must be joking. In my ca msf basic rider class, every single person
passed, most having had no experience. Some with a few points to spare but
they couldn't even brake nor corner nor stay in the turning box or even
swerve through the cones or anything. Certainly almost none of them could
handle a liter sized bike at any speed.
Maybe you took a different msf class?
The one I took was two days of two or three hours of "classroom"
instruction where the self indulging so called riding coach kept gloating
about his motorcycle accomplishments mainly what I remember being he rode
in the rain. And then two half days of riding around a huge parking lot the
size of the aircraft carrier hornet where nothing but a passing dog could
possibly be considered an obstruction. By our fourth meeting, we nicknamed
it motorcycle kindergarten, again.
Class was one night in a classroom setting and 2 5-6 hour days of range
riding/learning. The instructors were pretty humble in my opinion. They
did talk about how long they had been riding, but talked about how they
learned on their own with the scars to show for it.
Those types worry me. Where are the coaches who learned to ride WITHOUT
throwing themselves down the road?
Post by MayQueen
I felt like the instructors really wanted us to learn and be as competent
as possible in such a short time.
I'm sure they did.
Post by MayQueen
I would fear for my life as well riding myself or being near someone that
had just passed the class. I did pass, got my endorsement, but I in no
way feel that I am even a tiny bit qualified to ride on the street at this
point.
But isn't that the pouint of doing the course?

I will need much more practice in the parking lot for sure.

Who'll be your instructor now though? Obviously not an MSF "qualified"
instructor.
--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19
J. Clarke
2007-09-06 17:11:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beav
Post by MayQueen
Post by pinbob
Post by MayQueen
I completed the MSF course a few weeks ago and not everyone in
the
class passed. And quite a few just barely passed, I consider
myself one of the latter. Just a few more points and I wouldn't
have passed.
OMG you must be joking. In my ca msf basic rider class, every
single
person
passed, most having had no experience. Some with a few points to spare but
they couldn't even brake nor corner nor stay in the turning box or
even swerve through the cones or anything. Certainly almost none
of
them could handle a liter sized bike at any speed.
Maybe you took a different msf class?
The one I took was two days of two or three hours of "classroom"
instruction where the self indulging so called riding coach kept
gloating about his motorcycle accomplishments mainly what I
remember being he rode in the rain. And then two half days of
riding around a huge parking lot the
size of the aircraft carrier hornet where nothing but a passing
dog
could possibly be considered an obstruction. By our fourth
meeting,
we nicknamed
it motorcycle kindergarten, again.
Class was one night in a classroom setting and 2 5-6 hour days of
range riding/learning. The instructors were pretty humble in my
opinion. They did talk about how long they had been riding, but
talked about how they learned on their own with the scars to show
for it.
Those types worry me. Where are the coaches who learned to ride
WITHOUT throwing themselves down the road?
All youngsters. MSF hasn't been around all that long.
Post by Beav
Post by MayQueen
I felt like the instructors really wanted us to learn and be as
competent as possible in such a short time.
I'm sure they did.
Post by MayQueen
I would fear for my life as well riding myself or being near
someone
that had just passed the class. I did pass, got my endorsement,
but
I in no way feel that I am even a tiny bit qualified to ride on the
street at this point.
But isn't that the pouint of doing the course?
When I learned to ride, the way I learned was that I got on my nice
shiny new Honda 400 at the dealer and prayed every inch of the way
home that I would survive the experience. All the training I got was
"here's the throttle, here's the clutch, here's the front brake,
here's the back brake, here's the shift, good luck". It had at that
time been more than ten years since I'd even been on a bicycle and I
had about 20 miles to ride in fairly busy traffic. It's a miracle
that I did make it home.

Compared to where I was, MayQueen is at this point vastly more
skilled. That's the point. Not that it makes you an expert but that
you're far, far better off than learning by wobbling home from the
dealer.
Post by Beav
I will need much more practice in the parking lot for sure.
Who'll be your instructor now though? Obviously not an MSF
"qualified"
instructor.
The class taught her what to practice, she doesn't need an instructor
looking over her shoulder constantly while she practices.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
David White
2007-09-06 15:58:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by pinbob
Post by MayQueen
I completed the MSF course a few weeks ago and not everyone in the class
passed. And quite a few just barely passed, I consider myself one of
the latter. Just a few more points and I wouldn't have passed.
OMG you must be joking. In my ca msf basic rider class, every single person
passed, most having had no experience. Some with a few points to spare but
they couldn't even brake nor corner nor stay in the turning box or even
swerve through the cones or anything. Certainly almost none of them could
handle a liter sized bike at any speed.
Maybe you took a different msf class?
The one I took was two days of two or three hours of "classroom"
instruction where the self indulging so called riding coach kept gloating
about his motorcycle accomplishments mainly what I remember being he rode
in the rain. And then two half days of riding around a huge parking lot the
size of the aircraft carrier hornet where nothing but a passing dog could
possibly be considered an obstruction. By our fourth meeting, we nicknamed
it motorcycle kindergarten, again.
That is exactly what is is designed to be. The MSF Basic RiderCourse is
supposed to be for the novice rider. I go on the assumption that the
students have never been on a bike before and have zero riding
experience. So, yes you might call it motorcycle kindergarten.
Post by pinbob
The funniest part was how the "riding coach" kept telling us how "expert"
he was. Having come from a cold weather country, I can assure you that
riding in the rain, even if it was a veritable downpour, does not qualify a
msf coach to declare himself an expert in all things motorcycles. He even
said the reason for shifting weight when encountering obstacles was to
"lower" the center of gravity! Ha!
I am sorry that you had to deal with that type of RiderCoach. Maybe your
perception of the course would be different, if you had a coach that ran
the class the way it was supposed to be. You can't have a lot of
confidence in a course when the coach is has little or no clue about the
subject he is speaking about.
Post by pinbob
Besides, he had no clue about the laws regarding lane splitting. He said
you had to do it below 20 mph. Ha! What bullshit he spouted. He insisted we
check the fuel cock even though half the donated bikes didn't even have
one. Ha! What a pompous ass. And I'm supposed to learn biking from him?????
Let me ask you a question, Bob. Do you know what the Calif. Vehicle Code
states about the subject of "Lane Splitting", or "Land Sharing"? Not
many riders do. The coach you had in your class should have known. That
question has come up in every course that I have taught, and MSF has
supplied us with documentation that addresses that very subject.
Post by pinbob
I truly fear for my life if someone passes any california msf class and
rides a bike within a mile of me. At least if they pass the california dmv
riding test, they have to be prove themselves to be absolute experts on
their own bike, not a bunch of kindergarten kids on a rented 200 cc toy.
At the end of each course, I tell the students what they learned in the
course is the "basics" of motorcycle riding and they should in no way
they should consider themselves "expert" riders (students with riding
experience know that I am not including them). I suggest that they take
their bikes to places like large parking lots or secluded streets and
get lots of practice before they get out in actual traffic situations.
The city I live is has an industrial area that is pretty vacant on
weekends. It has traffic signals, stop signs, left and right turns, and
the occasional car or two. It is a perfect place to work on your riding
technique, without getting into major traffic.

BTW, the only thing that the DMV test proves is that you know how to
ride in circles at slow speed. How does that show how proficient you
will be on the street, in traffic??
Beav
2007-09-06 16:30:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by David White
Post by pinbob
The funniest part was how the "riding coach" kept telling us how "expert"
he was. Having come from a cold weather country, I can assure you that
riding in the rain, even if it was a veritable downpour, does not qualify a
msf coach to declare himself an expert in all things motorcycles. He even
said the reason for shifting weight when encountering obstacles was to
"lower" the center of gravity! Ha!
I am sorry that you had to deal with that type of RiderCoach. Maybe your
perception of the course would be different, if you had a coach that ran
the class the way it was supposed to be.
Does this mean that going on an MSF course can result in a person being
taught by someone who could pass on bad habits? My God, it's just like
getting a friend in to do the instructing.


You can't have a lot of
Post by David White
confidence in a course when the coach is has little or no clue about the
subject he is speaking about.
And how would one know before they went? At least if someone has her brother
doing the intial helping out, she'll have a rough idea of his capabilities
as both a rider and an instructor.
Post by David White
Post by pinbob
Besides, he had no clue about the laws regarding lane splitting. He said
you had to do it below 20 mph. Ha! What bullshit he spouted. He insisted we
check the fuel cock even though half the donated bikes didn't even have
one. Ha! What a pompous ass. And I'm supposed to learn biking from him?????
Let me ask you a question, Bob. Do you know what the Calif. Vehicle Code
states about the subject of "Lane Splitting", or "Land Sharing"? Not many
riders do. The coach you had in your class should have known. That
question has come up in every course that I have taught, and MSF has
supplied us with documentation that addresses that very subject.
So the MSF isn't what it should be?
Post by David White
Post by pinbob
I truly fear for my life if someone passes any california msf class and
rides a bike within a mile of me. At least if they pass the california dmv
riding test, they have to be prove themselves to be absolute experts on
their own bike, not a bunch of kindergarten kids on a rented 200 cc toy.
At the end of each course, I tell the students what they learned in the
course is the "basics" of motorcycle riding and they should in no way they
should consider themselves "expert" riders (students with riding
experience know that I am not including them). I suggest that they take
their bikes to places like large parking lots or secluded streets and get
lots of practice before they get out in actual traffic situations.
Absolute shite course then. And I make no apologies for saying that. If
someone comes to me for instruction, they CAN ride properly, confidently and
safely and I'm not a "class". To run a course on motorcycle riding and then
have the "passed out" students take themselves off to a parking lot is
bordering on the utterly ridiculous. Actually, forget the "bordering", it IS
ridiculous.
Post by David White
The city I live is has an industrial area that is pretty vacant on
weekends. It has traffic signals, stop signs, left and right turns, and
the occasional car or two. It is a perfect place to work on your riding
technique, without getting into major traffic.
Not much point when all of us ride IN traffic.
Post by David White
BTW, the only thing that the DMV test proves is that you know how to ride
in circles at slow speed. How does that show how proficient you will be on
the street, in traffic??
And how, exactly, does the MSF course differ? You've already said yourself
that you advise your students to stay away from traffic and practise in a
parking lot.
--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19
pinbob
2007-09-06 17:13:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by David White
Post by pinbob
By our fourth meeting, we nicknamed
it motorcycle kindergarten, again.
That is exactly what is is designed to be.
Let me ask you a question, Bob. Do you know what the Calif. Vehicle Code
states about the subject of "Lane Splitting", or "Land Sharing"? Not
many riders do. The coach you had in your class should have known.
Hi David,
Yes. I know EXACTLY what the California Vehicle Code states about "Lane
Splitting". The answer (drumroll) ... ... ... absolutly nothing!

Yep. There's no specific law that says you can share lanes and there's no
specific law that says you can't. So, for example, two 40-foot 18 wheelers
"could" share lanes legally if they were to fit between the lines. More to
the point, two or three or four motorcycles and a car could share a lane,
were they to fit.

Now, all the other laws still apply when you are lane sharing. For example,
if you're "reckless" or if you cross solid lines or if you ride on the
shoulder or ... or ... well ... you get the point.

The only law about lane sharing is that there isn't a law prohibiting lane
sharing. The MSF class got it all wrong.

At least, did I get it right?
David White
2007-09-06 18:20:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by pinbob
Post by David White
Post by pinbob
By our fourth meeting, we nicknamed
it motorcycle kindergarten, again.
That is exactly what is is designed to be.
Let me ask you a question, Bob. Do you know what the Calif. Vehicle Code
states about the subject of "Lane Splitting", or "Land Sharing"? Not
many riders do. The coach you had in your class should have known.
Hi David,
Yes. I know EXACTLY what the California Vehicle Code states about "Lane
Splitting". The answer (drumroll) ... ... ... absolutly nothing!
Yep. There's no specific law that says you can share lanes and there's no
specific law that says you can't. So, for example, two 40-foot 18 wheelers
"could" share lanes legally if they were to fit between the lines. More to
the point, two or three or four motorcycles and a car could share a lane,
were they to fit.
Now, all the other laws still apply when you are lane sharing. For example,
if you're "reckless" or if you cross solid lines or if you ride on the
shoulder or ... or ... well ... you get the point.
The only law about lane sharing is that there isn't a law prohibiting lane
sharing. The MSF class got it all wrong.
At least, did I get it right?
You got it exactly right. It's too bad that the coach the was in your
class was such a bonehead. MSF really does try and either get those
coaches up to speed, or weed them out altogether.
Beav
2007-09-04 20:37:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by David White
Post by Beav
Post by Bob
I also highly recommend the Ride Like A Pro video. It teaches what the
motorcycle cops learn -- with emphasis on "head AND eyes pointed where
you want to go" and the low speed techniques utilizing the "friction
zone" and the rear brake.
Never heard anything so daft in my life. No-one ever learned how to ride
a motorcycle by sitting in front of the TV watching a fucking DVD, they
learned by getting on a bike.
If the OP's brother is a rider, then he could giver some intital
instruction in the basics, after which she could gain some experience by
pootling about.
Um, you taken an MSF course lately?
No, but I spent a lot of my life designing, writing, implementing AND
instructing instructors on driving courses for a variety of mechanical
monsters. Roll on-Roll off tractors, fork lift trucks, HGV's etc.


If not, would it surprise you to
Post by David White
find out that we do include the watching of "DVD's" as part of the
classroom portion of the BRC?
It may surprise you to find out that I made two such films more the
Mechanical Handling Institute.


It helps to visually reinforce what we
Post by David White
just went over in class.
Amazing isn't it, but it's still not a substitute for an instructor. It's
what's actually called a "Visual Aid" nothing more.

And several of these "Training-aids" talk about
Post by David White
(and show) techniques that we will be working on when we take to the range.
Well they wouldn't show how to load bales of fucking hay on farm tractor
trailers would they?
Post by David White
If you think that the OP's brother can give her some instruction in the
"basics", why have her take the MSF BasicRider Course?
Time? Not all MSF courses are open when you wnat them to be, so it's ewither
do some off street learning or do fuck all.

We tell the
Post by David White
students that what they take from the course is just the basics and they
should in no way consider themselves expert riders. We try to make them
understand that they need to get lots of practice, and work on becoming a
proficient rider.
That's pretty much what ALL courses provide. The basics and no more, so
you're not unique.
Post by David White
In trying to teach her the so-called basics, what if he (not being a
trained instructor) showed her incorrectly, or showed her the use of bad
habits that might get her hurt?
What, like not letting the clutch out too quickly. Get real David, people
have been jumping onto bikes since Adam was a lad and actually managing to
ride them. The big problem these days is the Nanny State mindset. No-one has
the ability to do ANYTHNG unless they've been taught by a teacher, but tell
me, who taught the teacher and who taught the teachers teacher? Go back and
you WILL find the one that had zero instruction from a "qualified" examiner.
And seeing as the MSF isn't anything but a money generator and a way of
avoiding a REAL test, it doesn't actually mean anything. If you had a test
at the end of your course which the rider MUST pass before he/she was
allowed to ride, then it'd have at least SOME weight behind it, but the MSF
is used to avoid a test.

Granted some people will "take something away from the course", but their
main reason for doing the course is so they don't have to sit the DMV test.
Post by David White
I do work with my wife on her riding but, if I were not an experienced
MSF riderCoach, I would not be doing so.
Who taught YOUR teacher?
--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19
David White
2007-09-04 22:04:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beav
Granted some people will "take something away from the course", but their
main reason for doing the course is so they don't have to sit the DMV test.
So are you trying to tell me that the California DMV Motorcycle test is
harder and gives you more insight as to whom is a proficient rider than
the evaluations that a rider must pass to complete the MSF BasicRider
Course??

If you are planning on just riding around in circles in a parking lot,
the DMV test is perfect. Otherwise it is a joke and complete waste of
time. On-the-other-hand, the MSF evaluations that a rider must pass are
things that most riders use almost on a daily basis. They include quick
stopping, swerving, cornering, and limited space maneuvering.

And just so you know, the majority of people who come through the range
that I work, would not be able to "sit" the DMV test as they have never
been on a bike have no riding experience.
Post by Beav
Post by David White
I do work with my wife on her riding but, if I were not an experienced
MSF riderCoach, I would not be doing so.
Who taught YOUR teacher?
Unfortunately, my MSF trainer and I both come from the "Old School" of
learning how to ride. We both started riding several decades ago, before
there was the motorcycle training that we now enjoy. Both of us have
bumps and bruises, broken limbs, and several joints that are not genuine
GM parts any longer to show for our lack of proper safety training. If
you ask some people in the Motorcycle community, I should wear my scars
like a badge of honor. I use them to remind myself why I am an MSF
RiderCoach. I have had several personal friends, and know of many others
who did not survive and are no longer with us.

The MSF BasicRider Course may not be perfect, but, it is as close as we
now have. With the experiences I have acquired over some 30 plus years
of riding, I don't want to see today's new riders making the same
mistakes. I want them to take to the streets with more knowledge than I
did when I first started riding. I, and all of the other RiderCoaches
that I know and work with, want to do what we can to help reduce the
motorcycle accident rate, and help make the motorcycling community a
safer place to travel. I love motorcycling,and I love to teach. I can't
think of a better place to be. Sounds a little corny? What can I say....
Beav
2007-09-05 20:21:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by David White
Post by Beav
Granted some people will "take something away from the course", but their
main reason for doing the course is so they don't have to sit the DMV test.
So are you trying to tell me that the California DMV Motorcycle test is
harder and gives you more insight as to whom is a proficient rider than
the evaluations that a rider must pass to complete the MSF BasicRider
Course??
No, I'm saying people take the MSF course because it's all but guaranteed
they'll walk/ride away with a license.
Post by David White
If you are planning on just riding around in circles in a parking lot, the
DMV test is perfect. Otherwise it is a joke and complete waste of time.
On-the-other-hand, the MSF evaluations that a rider must pass are things
that most riders use almost on a daily basis. They include quick stopping,
swerving, cornering, and limited space maneuvering.
I'm intrigued by the statement "must pass". How many people actually fail
the course? And be honest, checking is pretty simple.
Post by David White
And just so you know, the majority of people who come through the range
that I work, would not be able to "sit" the DMV test as they have never
been on a bike have no riding experience.
Post by Beav
Post by David White
I do work with my wife on her riding but, if I were not an experienced
MSF riderCoach, I would not be doing so.
Who taught YOUR teacher?
Unfortunately, my MSF trainer and I both come from the "Old School" of
learning how to ride. We both started riding several decades ago, before
there was the motorcycle training that we now enjoy.
A bit like most people over the age of 45 then. Odd that you're still here
dont y'think?


Both of us have
Post by David White
bumps and bruises, broken limbs, and several joints that are not genuine
GM parts any longer to show for our lack of proper safety training.
I did my training just like you and I've got no scars and I've never broken
a bone. (well not one of my own anyway)
Post by David White
If
you ask some people in the Motorcycle community, I should wear my scars
like a badge of honor.
Scars add character they say, but I'm not convinced.

I use them to remind myself why I am an MSF
Post by David White
RiderCoach. I have had several personal friends, and know of many others
who did not survive and are no longer with us.
Don't we all have those? It's all part of life's rich tapestry.
Post by David White
The MSF BasicRider Course may not be perfect, but, it is as close as we
now have. With the experiences I have acquired over some 30 plus years of
riding, I don't want to see today's new riders making the same mistakes. I
want them to take to the streets with more knowledge than I did when I
first started riding. I, and all of the other RiderCoaches that I know and
work with, want to do what we can to help reduce the motorcycle accident
rate, and help make the motorcycling community a safer place to travel. I
love motorcycling,and I love to teach. I can't think of a better place to
be. Sounds a little corny? What can I say....
Well it doesn't sound corny at all, but what DOES sound corny is making
someone's comment that a little out of the way "getting to grips with a
bikes controls" session with a fellow motorcyclist sound like a certain
death sentence, or a ticket to ride with every known bad habit (gained in
acouple of afternoons) tattoo'd in the mind of the new rider. It's all about
degrees.
--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19
Timberwoof
2007-09-05 22:35:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beav
Post by David White
Post by Beav
Granted some people will "take something away from the course", but their
main reason for doing the course is so they don't have to sit the DMV test.
So are you trying to tell me that the California DMV Motorcycle test is
harder and gives you more insight as to whom is a proficient rider than
the evaluations that a rider must pass to complete the MSF BasicRider
Course??
No, I'm saying people take the MSF course because it's all but guaranteed
they'll walk/ride away with a license.
That part was convenient, but in the absence of friends who could teach
me the less obvious things about riding, the MSF class taught me a lot
of good stuff. I did appreciate the bit about How To Get On A
Motorcycle, a routine I have followed attentively and thus only very
rarely dropped my bike. }: )
Post by Beav
Post by David White
If you are planning on just riding around in circles in a parking lot, the
DMV test is perfect. Otherwise it is a joke and complete waste of time.
On-the-other-hand, the MSF evaluations that a rider must pass are things
that most riders use almost on a daily basis. They include quick stopping,
swerving, cornering, and limited space maneuvering.
I'm intrigued by the statement "must pass". How many people actually fail
the course? And be honest, checking is pretty simple.
One woman in my class was asked to leave. She wanted to take the class
before riding. Her husband found out about it, made her get on his big
hawg, and she, nervous and small, dropped it onto the shiny parts. The
next day in class she was so nervous about dropping her bike that she
did. (That's similar to why they send friends and spouses away during
the class. It makes some people nervous. When our roommate went, we left
him there and picked him up later.)
Post by Beav
Post by David White
And just so you know, the majority of people who come through the range
that I work, would not be able to "sit" the DMV test as they have never
been on a bike have no riding experience.
Post by Beav
Post by David White
I do work with my wife on her riding but, if I were not an experienced
MSF riderCoach, I would not be doing so.
Who taught YOUR teacher?
Unfortunately, my MSF trainer and I both come from the "Old School" of
learning how to ride. We both started riding several decades ago, before
there was the motorcycle training that we now enjoy.
A bit like most people over the age of 45 then. Odd that you're still here
dont y'think?
*Most*. I started riding when I was 36. :-)
Post by Beav
Both of us have
Post by David White
bumps and bruises, broken limbs, and several joints that are not genuine
GM parts any longer to show for our lack of proper safety training.
I did my training just like you and I've got no scars and I've never broken
a bone. (well not one of my own anyway)
You forgot to write, "So nyah!"
Post by Beav
Post by David White
If
you ask some people in the Motorcycle community, I should wear my scars
like a badge of honor.
Scars add character they say, but I'm not convinced.
I use them to remind myself why I am an MSF
Post by David White
RiderCoach. I have had several personal friends, and know of many others
who did not survive and are no longer with us.
Don't we all have those? It's all part of life's rich tapestry.
Post by David White
The MSF BasicRider Course may not be perfect, but, it is as close as we
now have. With the experiences I have acquired over some 30 plus years of
riding, I don't want to see today's new riders making the same mistakes. I
want them to take to the streets with more knowledge than I did when I
first started riding. I, and all of the other RiderCoaches that I know and
work with, want to do what we can to help reduce the motorcycle accident
rate, and help make the motorcycling community a safer place to travel. I
love motorcycling,and I love to teach. I can't think of a better place to
be. Sounds a little corny? What can I say....
Well it doesn't sound corny at all, but what DOES sound corny is making
someone's comment that a little out of the way "getting to grips with a
bikes controls" session with a fellow motorcyclist sound like a certain
death sentence, or a ticket to ride with every known bad habit (gained in
acouple of afternoons) tattoo'd in the mind of the new rider. It's all about
degrees.
I think you're exaggerating what was said. Given that, if we put it
through the Beav filter, it comes out quite rational: "Checking someone
out on a bike is not likely to cause any great pedagogical harm to them,
but teaching someone without a formal lesson plan could result in
leaving out important bits of information."
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com>
faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml
It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you.
pinbob
2007-09-06 04:39:05 UTC
Permalink
the MSF class taught me a lot of good stuff.
I did appreciate the bit about How To Get On A Motorcycle,
a routine I have followed attentively and thus only very
rarely dropped my bike. }: )
You've got to be joking!

Let me get this straight. You learned from the msf class how to get on a
bike without dropping it? Oh wait. You learned how to get on your bike and
you drop it only rarely?

If you haven't by your own words proven that the california msf basic rider
class is nothing more than motorcycle kindergarten, I can't imagine a
better description!
Timberwoof
2007-09-06 07:01:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by pinbob
the MSF class taught me a lot of good stuff.
I did appreciate the bit about How To Get On A Motorcycle,
a routine I have followed attentively and thus only very
rarely dropped my bike. }: )
You've got to be joking!
Let me get this straight. You learned from the msf class how to get on a
bike without dropping it? Oh wait. You learned how to get on your bike and
you drop it only rarely?
If you haven't by your own words proven that the california msf basic rider
class is nothing more than motorcycle kindergarten, I can't imagine a
better description!
Let me get this straight: You think that's the only thing I learned. And
you didn't seek any independent verification of the MSF class
curriculum. Either that or you forgot all the details of the drills that
other people who took the class reported. So much for your critical
thinking.
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com>
faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml
It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you.
David White
2007-09-06 16:05:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timberwoof
Post by pinbob
the MSF class taught me a lot of good stuff.
I did appreciate the bit about How To Get On A Motorcycle,
a routine I have followed attentively and thus only very
rarely dropped my bike. }: )
You've got to be joking!
Let me get this straight. You learned from the msf class how to get on a
bike without dropping it? Oh wait. You learned how to get on your bike and
you drop it only rarely?
If you haven't by your own words proven that the california msf basic rider
class is nothing more than motorcycle kindergarten, I can't imagine a
better description!
Let me get this straight: You think that's the only thing I learned. And
you didn't seek any independent verification of the MSF class
curriculum. Either that or you forgot all the details of the drills that
other people who took the class reported. So much for your critical
thinking.
And being a coach, I learn new things also. I may have a student come up
with a question that I can't answer. I give all the students my e-mail
addy and tell if them to send me any questions that I was unable to
answer in class. When they do, I find the answer, send it to the student
and I have that knowledge for future classes. I don't know it all and
I'm not afraid to admit it.
Timberwoof
2007-09-06 17:27:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by David White
Post by Timberwoof
Post by pinbob
the MSF class taught me a lot of good stuff.
I did appreciate the bit about How To Get On A Motorcycle,
a routine I have followed attentively and thus only very
rarely dropped my bike. }: )
You've got to be joking!
Let me get this straight. You learned from the msf class how to get on a
bike without dropping it? Oh wait. You learned how to get on your bike and
you drop it only rarely?
If you haven't by your own words proven that the california msf basic rider
class is nothing more than motorcycle kindergarten, I can't imagine a
better description!
Let me get this straight: You think that's the only thing I learned. And
you didn't seek any independent verification of the MSF class
curriculum. Either that or you forgot all the details of the drills that
other people who took the class reported. So much for your critical
thinking.
And being a coach, I learn new things also. I may have a student come up
with a question that I can't answer. I give all the students my e-mail
addy and tell if them to send me any questions that I was unable to
answer in class. When they do, I find the answer, send it to the student
and I have that knowledge for future classes. I don't know it all and
I'm not afraid to admit it.
Well said, and good on you. :-)

Here's what I got from the course: Techniques for handling a motorcycle,
strategies for dealing with traffic, and drills to go out and do on my
own to increase my skills. The MSF class doesn't make one an expert
rider, but it does teach enough that, with practice, one can survive the
first few months of riding.

But you know what? I expect that Beav will find some way to pick apart
what you said and present your words as proof that MSF teachers don't
know anything. But Beav, God's gift to motorcyclists, is not whom we
have to convince. ;-)
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com>
faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml
It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you.
J. Clarke
2007-09-06 11:11:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by pinbob
the MSF class taught me a lot of good stuff.
I did appreciate the bit about How To Get On A Motorcycle,
a routine I have followed attentively and thus only very
rarely dropped my bike. }: )
You've got to be joking!
Let me get this straight. You learned from the msf class how to get
on a bike without dropping it? Oh wait. You learned how to get on
your bike and you drop it only rarely?
If you haven't by your own words proven that the california msf
basic
rider class is nothing more than motorcycle kindergarten, I can't
imagine a better description!
I suspect that if you talk to MSF about it they'll agree that it's
"motorcycle kindergarten". What do you _expect_ it to be?
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Chuck Rhode
2007-09-06 13:11:34 UTC
Permalink
J. Clarke wrote this on Thu, 06 Sep 2007 07:11:00 -0400. My reply is
below.
Post by J. Clarke
I suspect that if you talk to MSF about it they'll agree that it's
"motorcycle kindergarten". What do you _expect_ it to be?
... and MSF could fix that impression anytime they wanted to, too.
--
.. Chuck Rhode, Sheboygan, WI, USA
.. 1979 Honda Goldwing GL1000 (Geraldine)
.. Weather: http://LacusVeris.com/WX
.. 72° — Wind SSW 5 mph — Sky mostly cloudy.
J. Clarke
2007-09-06 13:47:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuck Rhode
J. Clarke wrote this on Thu, 06 Sep 2007 07:11:00 -0400. My reply is
below.
Post by J. Clarke
I suspect that if you talk to MSF about it they'll agree that it's
"motorcycle kindergarten". What do you _expect_ it to be?
... and MSF could fix that impression anytime they wanted to, too.
Uh, what needs to be "fixed" and why?
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
barb
2007-09-06 14:56:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Chuck Rhode
J. Clarke wrote this on Thu, 06 Sep 2007 07:11:00 -0400. My reply is
below.
Post by J. Clarke
I suspect that if you talk to MSF about it they'll agree that it's
"motorcycle kindergarten". What do you _expect_ it to be?
... and MSF could fix that impression anytime they wanted to, too.
Uh, what needs to be "fixed" and why?
Maybe he thinks they should teach you to drop from the balcony above the
saloon, pop a wheelie and ride off into the sunset with a hearty "Hi ho
Sillllverrrr!
--
barb (who WAS that masked man?)
Chaplain, ARSCCwdne

buy my book!
http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=1198812

read my blog!
http://xenubarb.blogspot.com/
barb
2007-09-06 14:54:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuck Rhode
J. Clarke wrote this on Thu, 06 Sep 2007 07:11:00 -0400. My reply is
below.
Post by J. Clarke
I suspect that if you talk to MSF about it they'll agree that it's
"motorcycle kindergarten". What do you _expect_ it to be?
... and MSF could fix that impression anytime they wanted to, too.
Why would they? It's a class for beginners. Where do you usually begin
school? Kindergarten. It's not a *bad* thing!
--
barb
Chaplain, ARSCCwdne

buy my book!
http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=1198812

read my blog!
http://xenubarb.blogspot.com/
David White
2007-09-06 16:10:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by pinbob
the MSF class taught me a lot of good stuff.
I did appreciate the bit about How To Get On A Motorcycle,
a routine I have followed attentively and thus only very
rarely dropped my bike. }: )
You've got to be joking!
Let me get this straight. You learned from the msf class how to get
on a bike without dropping it? Oh wait. You learned how to get on
your bike and you drop it only rarely?
If you haven't by your own words proven that the california msf
basic
rider class is nothing more than motorcycle kindergarten, I can't
imagine a better description!
I suspect that if you talk to MSF about it they'll agree that it's
"motorcycle kindergarten". What do you _expect_ it to be?
If you wanted to learn more than the "basics", maybe you should have
taken the "ERC: Experienced Rider Course". Rather than using the
school's bikes, you use your own. Some of the exercises are the same as
the BRC but, are done at a faster speed. And, there are several
exercises in the ERC that are not part of the BRC.
Bill Palmer
2007-09-06 17:23:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by David White
If you wanted to learn more than the "basics", maybe you should have
taken the "ERC: Experienced Rider Course". \
You're not from California are you?
This kind of spouted nonsense is what kills me in the California catch-22.

CALIFORNIA CATCH-22:
1. You need a license.
2. You can't pass the ridiculous CA DMV lollipop test because they both
test extreme stunt skills and they grade within zero inches of crossing a
line
3. So, being an experienced rider on a liter-sized bike, you opt for the
MSF class
3. But nooooo ... you can NOT take the ERC: Experienced Rider Course.
4. Nope. The MSF wouldn't make all the money it makes on the Basic Rider
Course class. Nobody who already knew how to ride would then take the BRC.
5. So, you MUST take the Basic Rider Class to get your license.
6. The joke is everyone passes if they can breath and blink at the same
time! Many yards are given leeway in the tests.

After all that, you have no desire whatsoever to take another ridiculous
MSF class but at least you have your license.

This, my dear, is the California Catch 22!
J. Clarke
2007-09-06 17:58:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Palmer
Post by David White
If you wanted to learn more than the "basics", maybe you should have
taken the "ERC: Experienced Rider Course". \
You're not from California are you?
This kind of spouted nonsense is what kills me in the California catch-22.
1. You need a license.
2. You can't pass the ridiculous CA DMV lollipop test because they
both test extreme stunt skills and they grade within zero inches of
crossing a line
3. So, being an experienced rider on a liter-sized bike, you opt for
the MSF class
3. But nooooo ... you can NOT take the ERC: Experienced Rider
Course.
4. Nope. The MSF wouldn't make all the money it makes on the Basic
Rider Course class. Nobody who already knew how to ride would then
take the BRC.
5. So, you MUST take the Basic Rider Class to get your license.
6. The joke is everyone passes if they can breath and blink at the
same time! Many yards are given leeway in the tests.
After all that, you have no desire whatsoever to take another
ridiculous MSF class but at least you have your license.
This, my dear, is the California Catch 22!
The joke is that California makes someone coming into the state with a
valid driver's license take a test at all. In most states you just
give them your old license and fill out a form. So you have to go
through the motions to satisfy the system. One more reason to stay
out of that benighted state.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
J. Clarke
2007-09-06 17:15:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by David White
Post by J. Clarke
Post by pinbob
the MSF class taught me a lot of good stuff.
I did appreciate the bit about How To Get On A Motorcycle,
a routine I have followed attentively and thus only very
rarely dropped my bike. }: )
You've got to be joking!
Let me get this straight. You learned from the msf class how to get
on a bike without dropping it? Oh wait. You learned how to get on
your bike and you drop it only rarely?
If you haven't by your own words proven that the california msf
basic
rider class is nothing more than motorcycle kindergarten, I can't
imagine a better description!
I suspect that if you talk to MSF about it they'll agree that it's
"motorcycle kindergarten". What do you _expect_ it to be?
If you wanted to learn more than the "basics", maybe you should have
taken the "ERC: Experienced Rider Course". Rather than using the
school's bikes, you use your own. Some of the exercises are the same
as the BRC but, are done at a faster speed. And, there are several
exercises in the ERC that are not part of the BRC.
Exactly. I know a 60,000 mile a year rider who takes the ERC every
year and every year she learns something.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Bill Palmer
2007-09-06 17:17:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
I suspect that if you talk to MSF about it they'll agree that it's
"motorcycle kindergarten". What do you _expect_ it to be?
I would think, given the Ca DMV keyhole test is for experts only, and given
you get zero tolerance, that the MSF class wouldn't be almost diametrically
opposed in that there are meters of tolerance in the maneuvers and that
it's for the equivalent of motorcycle kindergarten.

Is it only me that the difference (expert stuntman vs kindergarten rider)
is telling? It's all about M-O-N-E-Y and nothing else!
Timberwoof
2007-09-06 17:55:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Palmer
Post by J. Clarke
I suspect that if you talk to MSF about it they'll agree that it's
"motorcycle kindergarten". What do you _expect_ it to be?
I would think, given the Ca DMV keyhole test is for experts only, and given
you get zero tolerance, that the MSF class wouldn't be almost diametrically
opposed in that there are meters of tolerance in the maneuvers and that
it's for the equivalent of motorcycle kindergarten.
Is it only me that the difference (expert stuntman vs kindergarten rider)
is telling? It's all about M-O-N-E-Y and nothing else!
I suspect you haven't ever taken then MSF course, or even taken the free
alternative to watch one being taught. So you don't know anything about
how the class is run, yet you consider yourself some kind of expert on
what's wrong with the MSF.
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com>
faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml
It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you.
David White
2007-09-06 18:37:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Palmer
Post by J. Clarke
I suspect that if you talk to MSF about it they'll agree that it's
"motorcycle kindergarten". What do you _expect_ it to be?
I would think, given the Ca DMV keyhole test is for experts only, and given
you get zero tolerance, that the MSF class wouldn't be almost diametrically
opposed in that there are meters of tolerance in the maneuvers and that
it's for the equivalent of motorcycle kindergarten.
The "keyhole" test means nothing. My 10 year old daughter should be able
to pass it. She rides dirt bikes and practices the same maneuvers that
she would use for the DMV test. Would that give her the ability to ride
on the streets?? Not even. Do you show how proficient you are at
cornering at something more than crawling speed?? No. Do you get to show
if you are proficient at quick stopping?? No. How about swerving around
objects?? I didn't think so. The MSF evaluations are a better at skills
that you will actually use on the road. Is it perfect?? No. But, I'll
put my money on someone who went through the course, than someone who
did not. But that's just my opinion.
Post by Bill Palmer
Is it only me that the difference (expert stuntman vs kindergarten rider)
is telling? It's all about M-O-N-E-Y and nothing else!
Michael Black
2007-09-06 19:02:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by David White
The "keyhole" test means nothing.
We agree.

I think the whole point of the California keyhole test is to funnel even
experienced riders into the MSF Basic Rider class.

If the intent was to "teach" riders, then they'd allow people to take the
advanced rider class ... but they don't.

WHich proves the point that it's all about money.
barb
2007-09-06 14:48:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by pinbob
the MSF class taught me a lot of good stuff.
I did appreciate the bit about How To Get On A Motorcycle,
a routine I have followed attentively and thus only very
rarely dropped my bike. }: )
You've got to be joking!
Let me get this straight. You learned from the msf class how to get on a
bike without dropping it? Oh wait. You learned how to get on your bike and
you drop it only rarely?
If you haven't by your own words proven that the california msf basic rider
class is nothing more than motorcycle kindergarten, I can't imagine a
better description!
Geez! Sounds like you were born with a throttle and brake in your hand.
You have to start somewhere, and yes, getting on a bike can be one of
those things some people need to learn.
--
barb
Chaplain, ARSCCwdne

buy my book!
http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=1198812

read my blog!
http://xenubarb.blogspot.com/
Michael Black
2007-09-06 17:26:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by barb
Geez! Sounds like you were born with a throttle and brake in your hand.
You have to start somewhere, and yes, getting on a bike can be one of
those things some people need to learn.
Hi barb,
You missed the point.

Assume the rider is VERY EXPERIENCED but out of state and merely wishes to
have a California motorcycle license?

The "system" forces them to take the "kindergarten" MSF class.

There is no other viable alternative.

They can't take the advanced rider class because it doesn't count (Reason?
$$$$ into the MSF coiffers) ... and they can't take the DMV keyhole test on
their own bike because it's ridiculous and it isn't worth dropping the bike
in the very many hours of practice it would take to consistently pass the
test enough to reach the 90% point given they give zero tolerance.

So, the point is for experienced riders, the California system is
ridiculous.

I do agree with you for the basic riders but we're not talking about them
in this discussion, are we?
Bob Myers
2007-09-06 17:50:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Black
They can't take the advanced rider class because it doesn't count (Reason?
$$$$ into the MSF coiffers) ... and they can't take the DMV keyhole test on
their own bike because it's ridiculous and it isn't worth dropping the bike
in the very many hours of practice it would take to consistently pass the
test enough to reach the 90% point given they give zero tolerance.
So, the point is for experienced riders, the California system is
ridiculous.
OK, so just to get this straight - we're talking about "experienced
riders" who, in all that experience, never gained enough in the
way of low-speed manuevering skills so as to enable them to pass
the "keyhole" test?

Simple "experience" SHOULDN'T count anything toward getting
your license unless that experience gave you the minimum expected
skill level.

Bob M.
Bill Palmer
2007-09-06 19:00:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Myers
OK, so just to get this straight - we're talking about "experienced
riders" who, in all that experience, never gained enough in the
way of low-speed manuevering skills so as to enable them to pass
the "keyhole" test?
You obviously have never taken the California lollipop test!

It's like a mine field. Nobody can know what it's like unless they've
actually taken the test themselves (which, by the way, the DMV won't tell
you what it is nor let you practice for it) and had an observer grade them.

Think of it this way. It's like being an experienced eater and then having
your wife's mother grade you while you eat a bowl of pasta with a white
shirt and bowtie on.

After you've done that, THEN tell us how "experience" plays any role.
J. Clarke
2007-09-06 18:19:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Black
Post by barb
Geez! Sounds like you were born with a throttle and brake in your
hand. You have to start somewhere, and yes, getting on a bike can
be
one of those things some people need to learn.
Hi barb,
You missed the point.
Assume the rider is VERY EXPERIENCED but out of state and merely
wishes to have a California motorcycle license?
The "system" forces them to take the "kindergarten" MSF class.
There is no other viable alternative.
They can't take the advanced rider class because it doesn't count
(Reason? $$$$ into the MSF coiffers) ... and they can't take the DMV
keyhole test on their own bike because it's ridiculous and it isn't
worth dropping the bike in the very many hours of practice it would
take to consistently pass the test enough to reach the 90% point
given they give zero tolerance.
So, the point is for experienced riders, the California system is
ridiculous.
I do agree with you for the basic riders but we're not talking about
them in this discussion, are we?
You really think that the whole point of this requirement is to make
money for MSF? It looks to me like it's just a totally screwed up
system--if you read the fine print, if you've been a legal resident of
California for 10 days then you have to have a learner's permit and
can't drive without a licensed driver sitting in the car with you
until you pass the driving test. Clearly the big problem is that they
don't treat people moving from out of state with valid out of state
licenses any differently than they do California residents who have
never had a license anywhere before.

But if you really are an experienced rider then I don't see the
problem with just laying out a practice course somewhere and
practicing until you can pass the test. If your skills are such that
you're afraid that you're going to drop the bike while practicing
going around a circle or weaving between cones then you aren't as
experienced as you think you are.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
pinbob
2007-09-06 18:44:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
But if you really are an experienced rider then I don't see the
problem with just laying out a practice course somewhere and
practicing until you can pass the test. If your skills are such that
you're afraid that you're going to drop the bike while practicing
going around a circle or weaving between cones then you aren't as
experienced as you think you are.
You obviously have never seen nor taken the California keyhole test.

There's a diagram of it somewhere on the web in a PDF file I remember
seeing. And a few photographs I remember long time ago.

Once you see the test, draw it in your driveway, and, then you MUST have an
impartial observer (everyone "passes" the test when they are their own
judge).

Tell the impartial observer that you FAIL the MOMENT either wheel crosses
the lines (which are a series of straights going directly into a circle you
will never see (and pleeeeeease don't tell me you're supposed to look ahead
as you'd be looking over your shoulder as ahead is to your side such that
you just have to guess where the lines lie).

Then come back to this newsgroup and tell us to practice until we pass that
test.
J. Clarke
2007-09-06 19:29:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by pinbob
Post by J. Clarke
But if you really are an experienced rider then I don't see the
problem with just laying out a practice course somewhere and
practicing until you can pass the test. If your skills are such that
you're afraid that you're going to drop the bike while practicing
going around a circle or weaving between cones then you aren't as
experienced as you think you are.
You obviously have never seen nor taken the California keyhole test.
It's a 20 foot diameter circle with a 2.5 foot wide lane and a weave
between cones (they use painted circles but it's the same idea).

No magic there. You don't even have to make a sharp turn to enter the
circle.
Post by pinbob
There's a diagram of it somewhere on the web in a PDF file I
remember
seeing. And a few photographs I remember long time ago.
Once you see the test, draw it in your driveway, and, then you MUST
have an impartial observer (everyone "passes" the test when they are
their own judge).
My driveway is not 20 feet wide. I'd do it at the cul-de-sac down the
street.
Post by pinbob
Tell the impartial observer that you FAIL the MOMENT either wheel
crosses the lines (which are a series of straights going directly
into a circle you will never see (and pleeeeeease don't tell me
you're supposed to look ahead as you'd be looking over your shoulder
as ahead is to your side such that you just have to guess where the
lines lie).
Put soda bottles on the lines. Knock one down you failed. No need
for an "impartial observer". And supposedly they only fail you if the
_front_ goes outside the lines.
Post by pinbob
Then come back to this newsgroup and tell us to practice until we
pass that test.
So you're saying that no amount of practice is sufficient to pass that
test?
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
David White
2007-09-06 18:49:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Black
Post by barb
Geez! Sounds like you were born with a throttle and brake in your hand.
You have to start somewhere, and yes, getting on a bike can be one of
those things some people need to learn.
Hi barb,
You missed the point.
Assume the rider is VERY EXPERIENCED but out of state and merely wishes to
have a California motorcycle license?
Do they have a license in another state??
Post by Michael Black
The "system" forces them to take the "kindergarten" MSF class.
There is no other viable alternative.
They can't take the advanced rider class because it doesn't count (Reason?
$$$$ into the MSF coiffers) ... and they can't take the DMV keyhole test on
their own bike because it's ridiculous and it isn't worth dropping the bike
in the very many hours of practice it would take to consistently pass the
test enough to reach the 90% point given they give zero tolerance.
Why is it so hard to pass the DMV test?? I did it on a Goldwing.
Post by Michael Black
So, the point is for experienced riders, the California system is
ridiculous.
I do agree with you for the basic riders but we're not talking about them
in this discussion, are we?
That's how this thread started.
Michael Black
2007-09-06 19:22:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by David White
Why is it so hard to pass the DMV test?? I did it on a Goldwing.
With all due respect, I've taken that California DMV test. I very seriously
doubt you did it on anything of the sort.

I wish we could find the California DMV records which show which bikes
"tried" to pass the lollipop test and which ones did.

While I very seriously doubt you "did it on a Goldwing" (as I've heard this
before) is there any way we can actually find out the real statistics of
which bikes passed and which failed?

Since I took the CA DMV keyhole test, I KNOW they ask what the bike you're
on is - so the information MUST be somewhere.

That's all I'll believe. Sorry.

For all of us....

Can anyone speak the truth as to the real statistics of the millions of
California riders who "attempted" to take the California lollipop test?
Beav
2007-09-06 16:36:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timberwoof
Post by Beav
Post by David White
Post by Beav
Granted some people will "take something away from the course", but their
main reason for doing the course is so they don't have to sit the DMV test.
So are you trying to tell me that the California DMV Motorcycle test is
harder and gives you more insight as to whom is a proficient rider than
the evaluations that a rider must pass to complete the MSF BasicRider
Course??
No, I'm saying people take the MSF course because it's all but guaranteed
they'll walk/ride away with a license.
That part was convenient, but in the absence of friends who could teach
me the less obvious things about riding, the MSF class taught me a lot
of good stuff. I did appreciate the bit about How To Get On A
Motorcycle, a routine I have followed attentively and thus only very
rarely dropped my bike. }: )
No-one ever taught me how to get on a bike and I'm ALWAYS falling off the
thing:)
Post by Timberwoof
Post by Beav
Post by David White
If you are planning on just riding around in circles in a parking lot, the
DMV test is perfect. Otherwise it is a joke and complete waste of time.
On-the-other-hand, the MSF evaluations that a rider must pass are things
that most riders use almost on a daily basis. They include quick stopping,
swerving, cornering, and limited space maneuvering.
I'm intrigued by the statement "must pass". How many people actually fail
the course? And be honest, checking is pretty simple.
One woman in my class was asked to leave. She wanted to take the class
before riding. Her husband found out about it, made her get on his big
hawg, and she, nervous and small, dropped it onto the shiny parts. The
next day in class she was so nervous about dropping her bike that she
did. (That's similar to why they send friends and spouses away during
the class. It makes some people nervous. When our roommate went, we left
him there and picked him up later.)
So that's one woman out of how many students?
Post by Timberwoof
Post by Beav
Post by David White
Unfortunately, my MSF trainer and I both come from the "Old School" of
learning how to ride. We both started riding several decades ago, before
there was the motorcycle training that we now enjoy.
A bit like most people over the age of 45 then. Odd that you're still here
dont y'think?
*Most*. I started riding when I was 36. :-)
Yeah, but you're 98 now;)
Post by Timberwoof
Post by Beav
Both of us have
Post by David White
bumps and bruises, broken limbs, and several joints that are not genuine
GM parts any longer to show for our lack of proper safety training.
I did my training just like you and I've got no scars and I've never broken
a bone. (well not one of my own anyway)
You forgot to write, "So nyah!"
My wife would fucking kill me if I used language like that. It's "ner" :-)
I'll keep quiet about breaking HER bones though.
Post by Timberwoof
Post by Beav
Well it doesn't sound corny at all, but what DOES sound corny is making
someone's comment that a little out of the way "getting to grips with a
bikes controls" session with a fellow motorcyclist sound like a certain
death sentence, or a ticket to ride with every known bad habit (gained in
acouple of afternoons) tattoo'd in the mind of the new rider. It's all about
degrees.
I think you're exaggerating what was said. Given that, if we put it
through the Beav filter, it comes out quite rational: "Checking someone
out on a bike is not likely to cause any great pedagogical harm to them,
but teaching someone without a formal lesson plan could result in
leaving out important bits of information."
Unlike the MSF coach who doesn't know basic road rules as they apply in
Calif, you mean?
--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19
pablo
2007-09-02 06:37:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
I just bought my first bike and may I ask two questions I can't seem to get
the answer from my brother on?
The first question is about HELMETS for beginners.
What's the difference between Snell full face helmets Shoei or Simpsons or
HJC or whatever? My brother says Shoei is the best but he can't tell me
why. As long as it's Snell, how can I tell the difference ...
Fit, comfort, noise level, durability, ability to clean the headliner etc.
Not a lot of it has to do with protection, most of the higher price is for
gee whiz features and wear comfort. Which, mind you, is important if you put
enough miles on the bike, and also if you don't wear earplugs.

Shoei is not a great fit for me personally, by the way, but it is for many
others. You have to try them on - big moey is not a guarantee it'll work for
*you*.
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
... I borrowed my brother' Shoei which didn't fit and it
was horrid.
There's no dboubting Shoei quality, but if it's not the right fit for you
thay'd be the first to tel you that that's all that matters.
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
The second question is about the California license. My brother said to not
even think about taking the dumb California DMV motorcycle driving test
saying the DMV designed that test just to make me pay the money to take the
MSF class
Your brother is right. Take the MSF class. Plenty of classes and sources
available as seen elsewhere in this thread.

...pablo
P. Roehling
2007-09-02 07:40:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
I just bought my first bike and may I ask two questions I can't seem to get
the answer from my brother on?
The first question is about HELMETS for beginners.
There's really no such thing as a "beginner's" helmet, so long as it's Snell
approved. They all have to meet the same safety standards to get the Snell
label, although there's not much doubt you get better quality -and often
lighter weight as well- as the prices escalate.
You *do* want to take the time to try on a lot of helmets and get the one
that fits you best -and BTW it should be just a bit tight at first. Helmets
loosen up somewhat as the foam lining compresses with age, and you don't
want it to be flopping back and forth on your noggin once it's broken in.
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
What REALLY is the TRUE difference (please remove advertising and marketing
from this discussion) between a Snell Shoei and a Snell Simpsons and a
Snell Bell from a cheaper Snell HJC (full face only).
Mostly looks, ventilation, suitability for differing head shapes, and
differing types of visor attachment. Brand differences aren't as important
as getting the proper fit, as an ill-fitting helmet can give you a whopping
headache after a couple of hours.
After a Snell sticker and a good fit, you also want to take weight into
consideration. The lighter the helmet, the more comfortable it will be when
wearing it for several hours at a time.
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
The second question is about the California license. My brother said to not
even think about taking the dumb California DMV motorcycle driving test
saying the DMV designed that test just to make me pay the money to take the
MSF class even though I'm in my mid twenties and don't have to take the
class by law. He didn't take the class because he got his license when we
lived down south, but I never had a license.
I didn't find the DMV motorcycle driving test to be difficult at all, but
I'd been riding -mostly in the dirt- for over 40 years when I finally took
it. And even if you could pass the dreaded "keyhole" test, it still wouldn't
teach you the hundred and one things the MSF will teach you about riding
safely and sensibly: stuff I and a bunch of my pre-MSF riding buddies had to
pick up the hard way.

Pete
Bart
2007-09-02 10:16:05 UTC
Permalink
There's been many near-endless debates about helmets (search Google) so I
won't comment on that.
As for the MSF course, TAKE IT! In addition to the good reasons listed in
other replies here, you'll probably save enough in insurance premiums to
more than pay for the course fee.

Enjoy your ride!

Bart
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
I just bought my first bike and may I ask two questions I can't seem to get
the answer from my brother on?
The first question is about HELMETS for beginners.
What's the difference between Snell full face helmets Shoei or Simpsons or
HJC or whatever? My brother says Shoei is the best but he can't tell me
why. As long as it's Snell, how can I tell the difference between a 125
dollar HJC from a 500 dollar Shoei? They both look, fit, and feel the same
to me in the store and I borrowed my brother' Shoei which didn't fit and it
was horrid.
What REALLY is the TRUE difference (please remove advertising and marketing
from this discussion) between a Snell Shoei and a Snell Simpsons and a
Snell Bell from a cheaper Snell HJC (full face only).
The second question is about the California license. My brother said to not
even think about taking the dumb California DMV motorcycle driving test
saying the DMV designed that test just to make me pay the money to take the
MSF class even though I'm in my mid twenties and don't have to take the
class by law. He didn't take the class because he got his license when we
lived down south, but I never had a license.
Where do I get the information to take the MSF class?
Timberwoof
2007-09-02 17:27:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
I just bought my first bike and may I ask two questions I can't seem to get
the answer from my brother on?
The first question is about HELMETS for beginners.
What's the difference between Snell full face helmets Shoei or Simpsons or
HJC or whatever? My brother says Shoei is the best but he can't tell me
why. As long as it's Snell, how can I tell the difference between a 125
dollar HJC from a 500 dollar Shoei? They both look, fit, and feel the same
to me in the store and I borrowed my brother' Shoei which didn't fit and it
was horrid.
Arai, Shoei, Simpson, HJC, etc. are manufacturers of helmets. Snell and
DOT are testing standards. DOT means (United States) Department Of
Transportation and any helmet you wear must have that certification.
Snell is the name of a guy who died in a race car accident; the
foundation named after him does research and testing of helmets for a
variety of sports including motorcycling.

Arai and Shoei are widely held to be the "best", but as long as a helmet
meets DOT or Snell, it will work. (If it meets Snell requirements, it
meets DOT.) But the most important thing is whether it's comfortable for
you.
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
What REALLY is the TRUE difference (please remove advertising and marketing
from this discussion) between a Snell Shoei and a Snell Simpsons and a
Snell Bell from a cheaper Snell HJC (full face only).
As others have written, it's all about materials and comfort. Get the
helmet that fits you best. When I bought my first helmet, my brother
said, "You got an Arai, right?" I said, "No, I got the one that fit."
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
The second question is about the California license. My brother said to not
even think about taking the dumb California DMV motorcycle driving test
saying the DMV designed that test just to make me pay the money to take the
MSF class even though I'm in my mid twenties and don't have to take the
class by law. He didn't take the class because he got his license when we
lived down south, but I never had a license.
Where do I get the information to take the MSF class?
http://www.ca-msp.org/

Take the class. Then please report back to us on why any newbie should
take the class. :-)
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com>
faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml
It's easy to say a war is so important your neighbor should go fight it for you.
Marco S Hyman
2007-09-03 02:49:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timberwoof
meets DOT or Snell, it will work. (If it meets Snell requirements, it
meets DOT.) But the most important thing is whether it's comfortable for
you.
Is that a recent development? Last time I checked Snell was NOT superset
of FMVSS 218 (AKA 49 CFR 571.218). Or are you writing from a purely
practical point of view? It that case I agree... what company would
bother creating a Snell only helmet that couldn't legally be used in
the US.
Post by Timberwoof
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
What REALLY is the TRUE difference (please remove advertising and marketing
from this discussion) between a Snell Shoei and a Snell Simpsons and a
Snell Bell from a cheaper Snell HJC (full face only).
See http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearbox/motorcycle_helmet_review/
for more on that subject.

// marc
HardWorkingDog
2007-09-03 03:33:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marco S Hyman
Post by Timberwoof
meets DOT or Snell, it will work. (If it meets Snell requirements, it
meets DOT.) But the most important thing is whether it's comfortable for
you.
Is that a recent development? Last time I checked Snell was NOT superset
of FMVSS 218 (AKA 49 CFR 571.218). Or are you writing from a purely
practical point of view? It that case I agree... what company would
bother creating a Snell only helmet that couldn't legally be used in
the US.
Post by Timberwoof
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
What REALLY is the TRUE difference (please remove advertising and marketing
from this discussion) between a Snell Shoei and a Snell Simpsons and a
Snell Bell from a cheaper Snell HJC (full face only).
See http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearbox/motorcycle_helmet_review/
for more on that subject.
// marc
Thanks for the url.
--
Charles
'99 YZ250
Michael Sierchio
2007-09-06 03:05:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marco S Hyman
Post by Timberwoof
meets DOT or Snell, it will work. (If it meets Snell requirements, it
meets DOT.) But the most important thing is whether it's comfortable for
you.
Is that a recent development? Last time I checked Snell was NOT superset
of FMVSS 218 (AKA 49 CFR 571.218). Or are you writing from a purely
practical point of view? It that case I agree... what company would
bother creating a Snell only helmet that couldn't legally be used in
the US.
Post by Timberwoof
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
What REALLY is the TRUE difference (please remove advertising and marketing
from this discussion) between a Snell Shoei and a Snell Simpsons and a
Snell Bell from a cheaper Snell HJC (full face only).
See http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearbox/motorcycle_helmet_review/
for more on that subject.
It is true that helmets that pass Snell sometimes fail FMVSS 218 --
usually the 2ms dwell time.

- Michael
--
Do not send me email replies -- this is a honeypot
address for spam.
Warren Weber
2007-09-02 20:45:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
I just bought my first bike and may I ask two questions I can't seem to get
the answer from my brother on?
The first question is about HELMETS for beginners.
What's the difference between Snell full face helmets Shoei or Simpsons or
HJC or whatever? My brother says Shoei is the best but he can't tell me
why. As long as it's Snell, how can I tell the difference between a 125
dollar HJC from a 500 dollar Shoei? They both look, fit, and feel the same
to me in the store and I borrowed my brother' Shoei which didn't fit and it
was horrid.
What REALLY is the TRUE difference (please remove advertising and marketing
from this discussion) between a Snell Shoei and a Snell Simpsons and a
Snell Bell from a cheaper Snell HJC (full face only).
The second question is about the California license. My brother said to not
even think about taking the dumb California DMV motorcycle driving test
saying the DMV designed that test just to make me pay the money to take the
MSF class even though I'm in my mid twenties and don't have to take the
class by law. He didn't take the class because he got his license when we
lived down south, but I never had a license.
Where do I get the information to take the MSF class?
A little OT from OP questions. After riding for 30 years, In abouy 1953
Colorado DMV decided motorcycle riders must have a designated (M) on their
drivers license or be ticketed. Drove done to the DMV and asked how I would
get my cycle there for the test legally And was told We don't watch to see
how you get here. The TEST was in a small parking lot. Fellow giving test
said go to far end of lot, Drive as fast as you can towards me and slam on
the brakes so as not to hit me. Well I gave theDMV my $$$ and passed test.
What a sham. I still get my (M) on drivers license to this day. But only
trail ride.
Alan Moore
2007-09-02 22:17:17 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 04:49:46 GMT, "Anne P. Mitchell, Esq."
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
I just bought my first bike and may I ask two questions I can't seem to get
the answer from my brother on?
The first question is about HELMETS for beginners.
What's the difference between Snell full face helmets Shoei or Simpsons or
HJC or whatever? My brother says Shoei is the best but he can't tell me
why. As long as it's Snell, how can I tell the difference between a 125
dollar HJC from a 500 dollar Shoei? They both look, fit, and feel the same
to me in the store and I borrowed my brother' Shoei which didn't fit and it
was horrid.
As you have just observed, a vitally important feature of a motorcycle
helmet is that it shoud fit comfortably. The helmet that fits your
brother may not fit you as well. Others have explained about DOT and
Snell standards. Once these are met, your comfort should dictate your
choice of which full-face helmet to buy (consider helmets other than
full face only if you don't like your face).
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
The second question is about the California license. My brother said to not
even think about taking the dumb California DMV motorcycle driving test
saying the DMV designed that test just to make me pay the money to take the
MSF class even though I'm in my mid twenties and don't have to take the
class by law. He didn't take the class because he got his license when we
lived down south, but I never had a license.
Wait a minute. Aren't you an attorney of some years experience
interested in child custody issues? With regard to the DMV motorycle
skills test, the test was designed before the MSF course existed. The
test will not substitute for the MSF course, nor does passing it
indicate much of anything about your competance to ride a motorcycle.
He is correct in describing the test as dumb, however...
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
Where do I get the information to take the MSF class?
See Timberwoof's earlier reply.

Al Moore
DoD 734
HardWorkingDog
2007-09-02 23:15:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Moore
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 04:49:46 GMT, "Anne P. Mitchell, Esq."
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
I just bought my first bike and may I ask two questions I can't seem to get
the answer from my brother on?
The first question is about HELMETS for beginners.
What's the difference between Snell full face helmets Shoei or Simpsons or
HJC or whatever? My brother says Shoei is the best but he can't tell me
why. As long as it's Snell, how can I tell the difference between a 125
dollar HJC from a 500 dollar Shoei? They both look, fit, and feel the same
to me in the store and I borrowed my brother' Shoei which didn't fit and it
was horrid.
As you have just observed, a vitally important feature of a motorcycle
helmet is that it shoud fit comfortably. The helmet that fits your
brother may not fit you as well. Others have explained about DOT and
Snell standards. Once these are met, your comfort should dictate your
choice of which full-face helmet to buy (consider helmets other than
full face only if you don't like your face).
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
The second question is about the California license. My brother said to not
even think about taking the dumb California DMV motorcycle driving test
saying the DMV designed that test just to make me pay the money to take the
MSF class even though I'm in my mid twenties and don't have to take the
class by law. He didn't take the class because he got his license when we
lived down south, but I never had a license.
Wait a minute. Aren't you an attorney of some years experience
interested in child custody issues?
I don't think THAT Ann P. Mitchell is in her "mid twenties." :) Let's
see, she was testifying before the California state senate in 1995,
that would put her at about 14 years old at the time...

http://www.dadsrights.org/testimony/summitapm.html
Post by Alan Moore
With regard to the DMV motorycle
skills test, the test was designed before the MSF course existed. The
test will not substitute for the MSF course, nor does passing it
indicate much of anything about your competance to ride a motorcycle.
He is correct in describing the test as dumb, however...
Nor does passing the MSF course indicate much of anything about your
competence to ride a motorcycle in traffic on a public highway. It
gives you some rudimentary tools to practice with, which is far better
than nothing, but to ride relatively safely on the street requires a
well-developed set of skills which take a significant amount of time,
practice and ability.

The best way to start getting those skills is to practice riding a
light-weight dual sport off the public roads.

But what do I know...
--
Charles
'99 YZ250
Dave
2007-09-04 20:21:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
I just bought my first bike and may I ask two questions I can't seem to get
the answer from my brother on?
The first question is about HELMETS for beginners.
The second question is about the California license. My brother said to not
even think about taking the dumb California DMV motorcycle driving test
saying the DMV designed that test just to make me pay the money to take the
MSF class even though I'm in my mid twenties and don't have to take the
class by law. He didn't take the class because he got his license when we
lived down south, but I never had a license.
Lots of replies to both of your questions. I just wanted to chime in and
advise you to take the MSF course. Basically what it does is give you some
familiarity with riding the bike while in safe controlled situation. You'll
practice things like stopping quickly, avoiding unexpected obstacles, and
you'll learn techniques that will make you a better, safer rider more
quickly than you might on your own.

When I started riding there was no MSF. I remember the day I picked up my
first bike. The sum total of my experience and training had been scanning
the motorcycle test booklet at the DMV, then completing the 15-question
written test before being handed a learner's license. Basically they said
"go figure it out". I recall sitting astride this 500cc beast and
marvelling that they'd let someone as blatantly unqualified as myself
operate such a rocketship amongst other drivers.

Would you give the keys to your car to your 15-year-old child and tell them
"go figure it out"?

Would you consider operating a crane or other piece of heavy equipment
without some rudimentary instruction?

Would you hook up your own electrical service from the transformer on the
pole?

A mistake on a motorcycle is always painful, often debilitating, and
sometimes fatal. Stack the odds in your favor. Take the course.

Dave S.
muddy cat
2007-09-04 21:00:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave
Would you hook up your own electrical service from the transformer on the
pole?
I would.
Paul Elliot
2007-09-05 14:11:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by muddy cat
Post by Dave
Would you hook up your own electrical service from the transformer on the
pole?
I would.
Good! I'll have you come do mine, 'cause I'm scared to death of it!

:-)
--
Heaven is where the police are British, the chefs Italian, the mechanics
German, the lovers French and it is all organized by the Swiss.

Hell is where the police are German, the chefs British, the mechanics
French, the lovers Swiss and it is all organized by Italians.

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/paul1cart/albums/
Beav
2007-09-05 20:22:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by muddy cat
Post by Dave
Would you hook up your own electrical service from the transformer on the
pole?
I would.
It'd be rude not to.
--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19
muddy cat
2007-09-05 21:02:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beav
Post by muddy cat
Post by Dave
Would you hook up your own electrical service from the transformer on the
pole?
I would.
It'd be rude not to.
heh
David White
2007-09-04 21:02:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave
Post by Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
I just bought my first bike and may I ask two questions I can't seem to get
the answer from my brother on?
The first question is about HELMETS for beginners.
The second question is about the California license. My brother said to not
even think about taking the dumb California DMV motorcycle driving test
saying the DMV designed that test just to make me pay the money to take the
MSF class even though I'm in my mid twenties and don't have to take the
class by law. He didn't take the class because he got his license when we
lived down south, but I never had a license.
Lots of replies to both of your questions. I just wanted to chime in and
advise you to take the MSF course. Basically what it does is give you some
familiarity with riding the bike while in safe controlled situation. You'll
practice things like stopping quickly, avoiding unexpected obstacles, and
you'll learn techniques that will make you a better, safer rider more
quickly than you might on your own.
When I started riding there was no MSF. I remember the day I picked up my
first bike. The sum total of my experience and training had been scanning
the motorcycle test booklet at the DMV, then completing the 15-question
written test before being handed a learner's license. Basically they said
"go figure it out". I recall sitting astride this 500cc beast and
marvelling that they'd let someone as blatantly unqualified as myself
operate such a rocketship amongst other drivers.
Would you give the keys to your car to your 15-year-old child and tell them
"go figure it out"?
Would you consider operating a crane or other piece of heavy equipment
without some rudimentary instruction?
Would you hook up your own electrical service from the transformer on the
pole?
A mistake on a motorcycle is always painful, often debilitating, and
sometimes fatal. Stack the odds in your favor. Take the course.
Dave S.
Excellent reply, Dave.
flynrider via MotorcycleKB.com
2007-09-05 01:05:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave
A mistake on a motorcycle is always painful, often debilitating, and
sometimes fatal. Stack the odds in your favor. Take the course.
Absolutely. Too many people equate riding a motorcycle with operating a
larger, faster bicycle. It requires some specialized skills that are not
necessarily intuitive.

I too started riding before the MSF course was available. I bent some
metal and scraped some skin making noob mistakes that I would have avoided
had I been able to take the class. It's not perfect, but it's an excellent
way to start.

John
--
Message posted via MotorcycleKB.com
http://www.motorcyclekb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/bike/200709/1
David T. Johnson
2007-09-05 17:26:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by flynrider via MotorcycleKB.com
Post by Dave
A mistake on a motorcycle is always painful, often debilitating, and
sometimes fatal. Stack the odds in your favor. Take the course.
Absolutely. Too many people equate riding a motorcycle with operating a
larger, faster bicycle. It requires some specialized skills that are not
necessarily intuitive.
I too started riding before the MSF course was available. I bent some
metal and scraped some skin making noob mistakes that I would have avoided
had I been able to take the class. It's not perfect, but it's an excellent
way to start.
No one ever says this but the MSF class was FUN when I took it 27 years
ago. Riding the different bikes and doing the stuff, talking about
bikes, and the instructors teaching it were a bunch of old farts who had
all been riding since about 1940 and came to class every day on classy
loud pre-AMF Harleys and road-worn gear. Those old guys are now
probably riding with St. Peter but otherwise the classes should be still
good. If you like bikes, doing anything with bikes is fun.
--
Posted with OS/2 Warp 4.52
and Sea Monkey 1.5a
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