Discussion:
Teaching My Downstairs Neighbor to Ride -- Any Advice?
(too old to reply)
Datesfat Chicks
2011-03-15 14:53:35 UTC
Permalink
Well, here is what has been done so far:

a)I got her into the MSF class. She does the classroom portion this
Saturday. The range time will be in about a month.

b)I got her boots, a helmet, and gloves. (As an aside, I got the full-face
helmet, visor, and gloves yesterday for about $100. I was surprised at what
you can get from HJC for about $60. Not world-class stuff, but DOT approved
and good for the price. I paid about $350 for my helmet and the visors are
$60. It is cool that you can get a $70 hemet with $25 visors.)

c)I verifed that my motorcycle jackets will fit her so she can borrow one if
helpful.

d)I'll go with her out to the local aiport with my Honda Shadow 600 and
teach her how to brake, accelerate, shift, turn, swerve, brake and
downshift, manuever at low speed, etc. (The MSF instructor will of course
have to correct any bad habits I teach her. But my feeling is better to get
her familiar with basic operation and so on.)

Any other advice?

Thanks, DFC
Mark Olson
2011-03-15 15:38:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
a)I got her into the MSF class. She does the classroom portion this
Saturday. The range time will be in about a month.
b)I got her boots, a helmet, and gloves. (As an aside, I got the full-face
helmet, visor, and gloves yesterday for about $100. I was surprised at what
you can get from HJC for about $60. Not world-class stuff, but DOT approved
and good for the price. I paid about $350 for my helmet and the visors are
$60. It is cool that you can get a $70 hemet with $25 visors.)
c)I verifed that my motorcycle jackets will fit her so she can borrow one if
helpful.
d)I'll go with her out to the local aiport with my Honda Shadow 600 and
teach her how to brake, accelerate, shift, turn, swerve, brake and
downshift, manuever at low speed, etc. (The MSF instructor will of course
have to correct any bad habits I teach her. But my feeling is better to get
her familiar with basic operation and so on.)
Any other advice?
re: d)

Take it _very_ slow. I went through this with my son last spring. Luckily
I had already decided I was going to do "baby steps" in the extreme, and it's
a good thing I did. The temptation to move along more quickly is tremendous,
and the student may even want this, but trust me, you don't want to do that.

In fact the best thing to do is not do d) at all- but I did violate this
advice with my own son. I decided in advance to go extremely
slowly, only doing one thing at a time, starting out with the engine off and
the bike in neutral, with me pushing and him getting used to balancing and
using the brakes. That was tiring but important. Add one thing at a time,
shifting comes a lot later- she will need to learn how to feather the clutch
and take off, then stop & not stall the engine first. You can do a lot in
first gear.

GO SLOW in the teaching. Figure it this way- a lot of people will show up
at the class, never having been on a bike before. If you can teach her a
few correct things, she may be better off. If you try to push it, she may
be at a disadvantage due to having lost confidence from too many spills
under your amateur instruction. Teaching someone without having been
trained as an instructor is risky. Sure, many of us learned the hard way
in the days before formal classes existed, me included. But I surely
would not have learned so many bad habits as I did, if I had taken a basic
motorcycle course back in the 70s.
Datesfat Chicks
2011-03-15 16:17:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Olson
Take it _very_ slow. I went through this with my son last spring.
Luckily
I had already decided I was going to do "baby steps" in the extreme, and it's
a good thing I did. The temptation to move along more quickly is tremendous,
and the student may even want this, but trust me, you don't want to do that.
In fact the best thing to do is not do d) at all- but I did violate this
advice with my own son. I decided in advance to go extremely
slowly, only doing one thing at a time, starting out with the engine off and
the bike in neutral, with me pushing and him getting used to balancing and
using the brakes. That was tiring but important. Add one thing at a time,
shifting comes a lot later- she will need to learn how to feather the clutch
and take off, then stop & not stall the engine first. You can do a lot in
first gear.
GO SLOW in the teaching. Figure it this way- a lot of people will show up
at the class, never having been on a bike before. If you can teach her a
few correct things, she may be better off. If you try to push it, she may
be at a disadvantage due to having lost confidence from too many spills
under your amateur instruction. Teaching someone without having been
trained as an instructor is risky. Sure, many of us learned the hard way
in the days before formal classes existed, me included. But I surely
would not have learned so many bad habits as I did, if I had taken a basic
motorcycle course back in the 70s.
The motorcycle instructor involved -- who I know personally and with whom
I've been in contact -- gave the same advice but she stated it a bit
differently.

She said that teaching her on a larger motorcycle may scare her to where she
doesn't want to take the class at all.

My take on the MSF courses are that they are generally cruel and they are
"cattle" arrangements. By "cruel" I mean that they force you very rapidly
to do things you're not comfortable with. I feel the courses would be more
humane if they just slowed it down by a factor of about 5. Unfortunately,
this would mean that the course costs about 5 times as much.

I have two friends in the Detroit area who took the MSF course because I had
done it and they thought it was cool. Despite rain, they held the course.
Both of them wiped out in braking exercises and were injured in minor ways.
So I was over at their house ... Dennis had a swollen blue knee and I really
felt awful that they had held a BRC in rain.

Now me, at my experience level (riding for a few years), I'm not going to
drop a bike in the rain in something like an ERC (although I possibly might
in a real-world obstacle-avoidance scenario). But when you have newbies who
are learning to brake and you do it in the rain ... bad move.

So, I'll be sure that she doesn't have a negative experience, like
low-siding the bike. As you said, you can do a lot in first gear.

I agree with you that a smaller number of topics done in a relaxed way is
the right way to do it.

Thanks for the advice.

I agree with you.

DFC.
Mark Olson
2011-03-15 16:27:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
The motorcycle instructor involved -- who I know personally and with whom
I've been in contact -- gave the same advice but she stated it a bit
differently.
She said that teaching her on a larger motorcycle may scare her to where she
doesn't want to take the class at all.
I totally spaced out on the topic of what bike.

Yep- best bike to learn on are the same 125 or 250cc bikes the MSF uses. What
seems small to you and I, e.g. a Honda 400 twin, might seem HUGE to a newbie,
like my wife. I bought a 1981 CM400T for her to start on, and it went badly
although she was enthusiastic, it was just too big and heavy for her. Not
until I got her an EX250 did it start to work out for her.

A 600 Shadow is a big heavy bike for a raw beginner, and so is not good for
teaching a new rider at all. If you can't get a different bike for her, I
would not even attempt to use that bike, it would be FAR better to wait for
the class. I am in total agreement with the instructor on this point.

For my son, about 6 feet and 170 lbs, we cycled (hah) through three different
bikes, the EX250, a Bandit 400, and his brother's VF500F. The VF500F was
the easiest for him to handle as a newbie due to its easy-going ergos and
gearing.

Experienced riders don't feel the weight of bikes because we generally never
get them out of balance and have to right them by main force. But newbies do
it all the time and it's a lot easier to recover from a slight imbalance on
a 300 lb bike than a 450-500 lb bike.
Datesfat Chicks
2011-03-15 16:34:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Olson
A 600 Shadow is a big heavy bike for a raw beginner, and so is not good for
teaching a new rider at all. If you can't get a different bike for her, I
would not even attempt to use that bike, it would be FAR better to wait for
the class. I am in total agreement with the instructor on this point.
I'll let you know how it goes.

I myself learned on that motorcycle. It was dropped off at the airport by
the person I bought it from, and I rode it around (and yes, I did drop it
twice) before I finished the MSF course. So it can be done.

She is a tough girl. We will see.

I agree with you about the "don't feel it" thing. After a bit of riding,
you learn all sorts of scenarios, like what happens when you use the front
brake at low speed in a turn, what happens when you come to a stop around a
curve and haven't straightened up the bike before your speed reaches 0, etc.

Again, thanks for the advice.

This will be interesting.

You are right. I had forgotten about what a first-timer is likely to do
with something that weighs that much.

DFC.
TOG@Toil
2011-03-15 15:56:09 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 15, 2:53 pm, "Datesfat Chicks" <***@gmail.com>
wrote:

<snip>

While applauding the general intention, I *really* don't think you've
got the know-how and experience to do this. BICBW.

Secondly, I have a nasty feeling that a helmet/boots/gloves combo for
100 bucks signifies that the stuff is utter crap, no matter how many
fancy stickers it wears. I know stuff is cheaper in the US than here,
and I know that a lot of Chinese (for example) helmets have improved
beyond measure, but You Gets Wot You Paid For is still an immutable
law, IMHO.

Thirdly, knowing how litigious the US seems to be, what's your legal
position here?
Datesfat Chicks
2011-03-15 16:28:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@Toil
<snip>
While applauding the general intention, I *really* don't think you've
got the know-how and experience to do this. BICBW.
You are wrong.

C'mon dude, what can a person possibly do wrong in teaching someone to start
and stop and a few other basic skills, so long as they are aware of the
basic techniques themselves?

I'm not teaching racing technique.

I'm teaching how to get the bike from 0 MPH to 15 MPH and then back down to
0 MPH again. And how to make the turn signal start blinking and stop
blinking. And a few other skills that aren't much more advanced than that.
Post by ***@Toil
Secondly, I have a nasty feeling that a helmet/boots/gloves combo for
100 bucks signifies that the stuff is utter crap, no matter how many
fancy stickers it wears. I know stuff is cheaper in the US than here,
and I know that a lot of Chinese (for example) helmets have improved
beyond measure, but You Gets Wot You Paid For is still an immutable
law, IMHO.
I did notice that the brackets for the visor aren't as good as my Shoei.
But they work. I'm not saying it is great stuff. I'm just saying that the
(what you get)/(what you pay) ratio is pretty good. I was shocked you could
get a DOT-approved full-face helmet for $60.
Post by ***@Toil
Thirdly, knowing how litigious the US seems to be, what's your legal
position here?
Well, the first thing I'll teach her is how to stop the motorcycle. And
we'll do this many, many times so it is burned into her memory.

It is true that something horrible could happen, but that is a long shot
when most of the time is spent in first gear.

I agree with you that I have legal exposure, but the odds of it coming to
that are pretty small.

Just a question for you ... in your opinion, what makes the U.S. more
litigious?

For example, if you teach someone you know to ride a bike in a parking lot
in the U.K. and something unforeseen happens, why do you feel you are less
likely to be sued there?

Thanks,
DFC
TOG@Toil
2011-03-15 17:01:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by ***@Toil
<snip>
While applauding the general intention, I *really* don't think you've
got the know-how and experience to do this. BICBW.
You are wrong.
All the evidence from your posts here *really* suggests otherwise, you
know.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
C'mon dude, what can a person possibly do wrong in teaching someone to start
and stop and a few other basic skills, so long as they are aware of the
basic techniques themselves?
I'm not teaching racing technique.
I'm teaching how to get the bike from 0 MPH to 15 MPH and then back down to
0 MPH again.  And how to make the turn signal start blinking and stop
blinking.  And a few other skills that aren't much more advanced than that.
I think that's a fair comment, actually. As above. If that's all, then
I see your point.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by ***@Toil
Secondly, I have a nasty feeling that a helmet/boots/gloves combo for
100 bucks signifies that the stuff is utter crap, no matter how many
fancy stickers it wears. I know stuff is cheaper in the US than here,
and I know that a lot of Chinese (for example) helmets have improved
beyond measure, but You Gets Wot You Paid For is still an immutable
law, IMHO.
I did notice that the brackets for the visor aren't as good as my Shoei.
But they work.  I'm not saying it is great stuff.  I'm just saying that the
(what you get)/(what you pay) ratio is pretty good.  I was shocked you could
get a DOT-approved full-face helmet for $60.
We've had some flak over this side of the pond because some cheap
helmets appeared to have been designed to exploit loopholes in the
regs. You can get perfectly approved helmets here cheaply, too, and
they may bear the same stickers as really expensive Arai, Shoei etc
kit. I'd still prefer to spend more and get proven quality kit, and I
don't think a newbie should be steered towards the really cheap stuff
*at all* (but if you're skint, you have no choice, as I remember from
my formative years on a bike). Newbies come odff bikes more
frequently, and they therefore have a greater need for decent
protective gear.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by ***@Toil
Thirdly, knowing how litigious the US seems to be, what's your legal
position here?
Well, the first thing I'll teach her is how to stop the motorcycle.  And
we'll do this many, many times so it is burned into her memory.
It is true that something horrible could happen, but that is a long shot
when most of the time is spent in first gear.
I agree with you that I have legal exposure, but the odds of it coming to
that are pretty small.
Fine. Doesn't have to be big, mind. All it takes is someone with
dollar signs in their eyes after some sharp-talking lawyer's told them
they could be in for millions. As Olson says, I don't think a 600
Shadow is an ideal beginner's bike, but then the US learns on bigger
bikes than we do.

And the US motorcycle crash/fatality/injury rate is *way* worse than
ours, as well. We did this a while back. Could be the two are related.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Just a question for you ... in your opinion, what makes the U.S. more
litigious?
For example, if you teach someone you know to ride a bike in a parking lot
in the U.K. and something unforeseen happens, why do you feel you are less
likely to be sued there?
<Shrug> You just are. It's changing more towards the US abdication of
personal responsibility, which is sad, but then we don't have demented
juries awarding million-dollar damages for things that we consider
petty. The combination of *massive* payouts and no-win no-fee lawyers
is a dangerous one, IMHO. We have the latter, but not the former, by
and large.
Bob Myers
2011-03-15 18:27:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by ***@Toil
<snip>
While applauding the general intention, I *really* don't think you've
got the know-how and experience to do this. BICBW.
You are wrong.
C'mon dude, what can a person possibly do wrong in teaching someone to
start and stop and a few other basic skills, so long as they are aware
of the basic techniques themselves?
So let's think about this - if your friend wanted to learn to fly, would
you feel that it would be a good idea for you to start by given her a
few "basic skills" lessons on your own, BEFORE turning her over to a
qualified instructor? And then let's add to that scenario the
restriction that your friend would HAVE to solo immediately, as the only
aircraft available were single-seaters. That's what you're talking
about there.

The question is not what you could possibly do wrong, as the answer to
that one should be obvious. The question is whether or not you're going
to do anything RIGHT enough to make this little "private training before
you go to the BRC" really worth the risk. Sure, it will feel good to
play the role of the "experienced rider helping the newbie" - but
there's not much good that will come of this vs. just letting the MSF
get her started off right on their own.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
I'm not teaching racing technique.
I'm teaching how to get the bike from 0 MPH to 15 MPH and then back
down to 0 MPH again. And how to make the turn signal start blinking
and stop blinking.
And right there you've made your first error without even realizing it.
There are a couple of reasons that the MSF bikes don't HAVE turn signals
to begin with - besides the likelihood of them being scraped off by the
new riders, they just don't NEED that sort of distraction when trying to
get the basics of operating the bike down.

Bob M.
Datesfat Chicks
2011-03-15 19:33:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Myers
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by ***@Toil
<snip>
While applauding the general intention, I *really* don't think you've
got the know-how and experience to do this. BICBW.
You are wrong.
C'mon dude, what can a person possibly do wrong in teaching someone to
start and stop and a few other basic skills, so long as they are aware of
the basic techniques themselves?
So let's think about this - if your friend wanted to learn to fly, would
you feel that it would be a good idea for you to start by given her a few
"basic skills" lessons on your own, BEFORE turning her over to a qualified
instructor? And then let's add to that scenario the restriction that your
friend would HAVE to solo immediately, as the only aircraft available were
single-seaters. That's what you're talking about there.
The question is not what you could possibly do wrong, as the answer to
that one should be obvious. The question is whether or not you're going
to do anything RIGHT enough to make this little "private training before
you go to the BRC" really worth the risk. Sure, it will feel good to play
the role of the "experienced rider helping the newbie" - but there's not
much good that will come of this vs. just letting the MSF get her started
off right on their own.
As usual, Bob, you're an anal retentive prick who will argue anything to
death just to kill the boredom. Not liking your job today?
Post by Bob Myers
Post by Datesfat Chicks
I'm not teaching racing technique.
I'm teaching how to get the bike from 0 MPH to 15 MPH and then back down
to 0 MPH again. And how to make the turn signal start blinking and stop
blinking.
And right there you've made your first error without even realizing it.
There are a couple of reasons that the MSF bikes don't HAVE turn signals
to begin with - besides the likelihood of them being scraped off by the
new riders, they just don't NEED that sort of distraction when trying to
get the basics of operating the bike down.
Yes, they do have turn signals.

DFC
Bob Myers
2011-03-15 23:23:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by Bob Myers
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by ***@Toil
<snip>
While applauding the general intention, I *really* don't think you've
got the know-how and experience to do this. BICBW.
You are wrong.
C'mon dude, what can a person possibly do wrong in teaching someone
to start and stop and a few other basic skills, so long as they are
aware of the basic techniques themselves?
So let's think about this - if your friend wanted to learn to fly,
would you feel that it would be a good idea for you to start by given
her a few "basic skills" lessons on your own, BEFORE turning her over
to a qualified instructor? And then let's add to that scenario the
restriction that your friend would HAVE to solo immediately, as the
only aircraft available were single-seaters. That's what you're
talking about there.
The question is not what you could possibly do wrong, as the answer
to that one should be obvious. The question is whether or not you're
going to do anything RIGHT enough to make this little "private
training before you go to the BRC" really worth the risk. Sure, it
will feel good to play the role of the "experienced rider helping the
newbie" - but there's not much good that will come of this vs. just
letting the MSF get her started off right on their own.
As usual, Bob, you're an anal retentive prick who will argue anything
to death just to kill the boredom. Not liking your job today?
Wow. And a gracious good afternoon to YOU, too. Who peed in your
Cheerios today?

Look, Skippy, YOU asked for the advice of the group re your plans to
instruct your neighbor. What I've told you above doesn't differ from
what you're hearing from a LOT of people here, including a goodly number
who are, to say the least, older and wiser hands at the art of
motorcycling than either of us. You don't LIKE what you're hearing,
perhaps, but it's all been offered in the manner in which we presumed it
was being asked - and specifically, I don't see a damned thing in what I
told you that would justify the sort of insult I got in return.

Sorry, but as has already been said a number of times, there's nothing
particularly good that can come of your playing instructor, and quite a
bit bad, esp. given that said neighbor is already planning on doing the
right thing by taking the MSF BRC. There's simply no justification for
you messing that up - certainly nothing you've said here gives any
support to the notion that you're somehow going to be giving this
student a leg up on the others in the BRC. You won't get the egoboo by
not playing the "experienced and wiser rider, out to give the beginner a
few pointers" - but that's your problem, it certainly doesn't do a
damned thing to help the student.

When I first started getting interested in these here motor-sickle
things, I went to a friend who had WAYYYY more riding experience than
you or I are ever likely to have; we're talking someone who was riding
pretty much since they could say "motorcycle," and who has amassed
LITERALLY hundreds of thousands of miles of riding all over the world.
He pointed me to the MSF BRC, and steadfastly refused to give me any
"advance training" by himself. By now, I understand why he did that,
and greatly appreciate it. You might do well to think about that a bit,
and think long and hard about just why you're so hot to play instructor
in this case - a role for which you have given absolutely no sign of
being qualified for.

Oh, and up yours, too.

Bob M.
BryanUT
2011-03-15 23:27:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by Bob Myers
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by ***@Toil
<snip>
While applauding the general intention, I *really* don't think you've
got the know-how and experience to do this. BICBW.
You are wrong.
C'mon dude, what can a person possibly do wrong in teaching someone
to start and stop and a few other basic skills, so long as they are
aware of the basic techniques themselves?
So let's think about this - if your friend wanted to learn to fly,
would you feel that it would be a good idea for you to start by given
her a few "basic skills" lessons on your own, BEFORE turning her over
to a qualified instructor?  And then let's add to that scenario the
restriction that your friend would HAVE to solo immediately, as the
only aircraft available were single-seaters.  That's what you're
talking about there.
The question is not what you could possibly do wrong, as the answer
to that one should be obvious.  The question is whether or not you're
going to do anything RIGHT enough to make this little "private
training before you go to the BRC" really worth the risk.  Sure, it
will feel good to play the role of the "experienced rider helping the
newbie" - but there's not much good that will come of this vs. just
letting the MSF get her started off right on their own.
As usual, Bob, you're an anal retentive prick who will argue anything
to death just to kill the boredom.  Not liking your job today?
Wow.  And a gracious good afternoon to YOU, too.  Who peed in your
Cheerios today?
Look, Skippy, YOU asked for the advice of the group re your plans to
instruct your neighbor.  What I've told you above doesn't differ from
what you're hearing from a LOT of people here, including a goodly number
who are, to say the least, older and wiser hands at the art of
motorcycling than either of us.  You don't LIKE what you're hearing,
perhaps, but it's all been offered in the manner in which we presumed it
was being asked - and specifically, I don't see a damned thing in what I
told you that would justify the sort of insult I got in return.
Sorry, but as has already been said a number of times, there's nothing
particularly good that can come of your playing instructor, and quite a
bit bad, esp. given that  said neighbor is already planning on doing the
right thing by taking the MSF BRC.  There's simply no justification for
you messing that up - certainly nothing you've said here gives any
support to the notion that you're somehow going to be giving this
student a leg up on the others in the BRC.  You won't get the egoboo by
not playing the "experienced and wiser rider, out to give the beginner a
few pointers" - but that's your problem, it certainly doesn't do a
damned thing to help the student.
When I first started getting interested in these here motor-sickle
things, I went to a friend who had WAYYYY more riding experience than
you or I are ever likely to have; we're talking someone who was riding
pretty much since they could say "motorcycle," and who has amassed
LITERALLY hundreds of thousands of miles of riding all over the world.  
He pointed me to the MSF BRC, and steadfastly refused to give me any
"advance training" by himself.  By now, I understand why he did that,
and greatly appreciate it.  You might do well to think about that a bit,
and think long and hard about just why you're so hot to play instructor
in this case - a role for which you have given absolutely no sign of
being qualified for.
Oh, and up yours, too.
Bob M.
Even when I was a ski instructor I put my kids in lessons. I was also
a Red Cross swimming instructor, I put my kids in swim lessons.
Calgary (Don)
2011-03-16 01:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Myers
When I first started getting interested in these here motor-sickle
things, I went to a friend who had WAYYYY more riding experience than
you or I are ever likely to have; we're talking someone who was riding
pretty much since they could say "motorcycle," and who has amassed
LITERALLY hundreds of thousands of miles of riding all over the world.
He pointed me to the MSF BRC, and steadfastly refused to give me any
"advance training" by himself. By now, I understand why he did that,
and greatly appreciate it. You might do well to think about that a bit,
and think long and hard about just why you're so hot to play instructor
in this case - a role for which you have given absolutely no sign of
being qualified for.
*Applause*

David is little more than a beginner himself.[1] My opinion is he is
using this young lady's inexperience to show off. It would be much safer
for both of them if David just bought her a copy of Proficient
Motorcycling and read it with her.

Personally I would not want to try to teach someone how to ride.
Considering how dangerous bikes are, especially for newbies, how would I
feel if my unwitting student was seriously injured while riding. Maybe
it is just me, but I would never be able to shake the feeling I did
something wrong and my poor instruction may have contributed to the crash.

[1] Yes David I know you have been riding for a few years and yes I
still consider you a beginner. I think you will know what I mean five
years from now. I have been riding for over forty years and I couldn't
guess at the miles I've covered, and I will tell you it wasn't until
about ten years ago I realized how little I knew about riding well.
--
Disclaimer
Do not believe a thing I have said, unless you already know it to be
true, or can independently verify it from another source.

Reeky Ride To The Rockies
http://actualriders.ca/reekyrockies.htm
I Can See Clearly Now!
2011-03-16 13:02:30 UTC
Permalink
David is little more than a beginner himself.[1]  My opinion is he is
using this young lady's inexperience to show off.
Well, I certainly hope David's neighbor isn't too inexperienced when
he gets her into the horizontal posture he hopes she'll assume.
It would be much safer
for both of them if David just bought her a copy of Proficient
Motorcycling and read it with her.
It would be better if she would read the Kama Sutra to David,
Road Glidin' Don
2011-03-16 13:09:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by ***@Toil
<snip>
While applauding the general intention, I *really* don't think you've
got the know-how and experience to do this. BICBW.
You are wrong.
C'mon dude, what can a person possibly do wrong
The trip to the training area on the back of a bike ridden by a
komplete klutz like you, for one.
Datesfat Chicks
2011-03-16 13:48:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by ***@Toil
<snip>
While applauding the general intention, I *really* don't think you've
got the know-how and experience to do this. BICBW.
You are wrong.
C'mon dude, what can a person possibly do wrong
The trip to the training area on the back of a bike ridden by a
komplete klutz like you, for one.
Well, to make the trip safer, we'll both wear bear suits.

In all seriousness ...

What has been discussed in previous threads (and is in fact the basis for my
handle "Dates Fat Chicks") is that my little Honda is only rated to carry
365 lbs., and with both of us we'd be just a little over. So I'll take the
bike and she'll take my truck.

Again in all seriousness ...

The fundamental question (which hasn't really been addressed with any
credibility) is whether I'm competent to teach someone what all the controls
on the motorcycle are, how to raise and lower the kickstand, and how to
start, stop, turn, etc. I believe the answer is absolutely "yes".

However, I think the argument of how skilled the instructor is would come
into play if I were teaching racing technique, wheelies and stoppies, etc.

Best regards,
DFC
Mark Olson
2011-03-16 13:57:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
The fundamental question (which hasn't really been addressed with any
credibility) is whether I'm competent to teach someone what all the controls
on the motorcycle are, how to raise and lower the kickstand, and how to
start, stop, turn, etc. I believe the answer is absolutely "yes".
However, I think the argument of how skilled the instructor is would come
into play if I were teaching racing technique, wheelies and stoppies, etc.
It seems everyone else here gets this, but you seem to be either
unaware of, or deliberately ignoring this crucial point:

You are equating/confusing/conflating your competence to operate a
bike with your competence as a teacher. The one has very little to
do with the other. As others have pointed out, your competence as
a rider isn't great, but that really isn't the crux of the issue.
Even if we stipulate that you are a highly skilled rider, it doesn't
mean you are qualified to teach even the most basic aspects of riding.

I'm pretty good at mathematics, but I'm a terrible math teacher.
Datesfat Chicks
2011-03-16 14:49:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Olson
Post by Datesfat Chicks
The fundamental question (which hasn't really been addressed with any
credibility) is whether I'm competent to teach someone what all the
controls on the motorcycle are, how to raise and lower the kickstand, and
how to start, stop, turn, etc. I believe the answer is absolutely "yes".
However, I think the argument of how skilled the instructor is would come
into play if I were teaching racing technique, wheelies and stoppies, etc.
It seems everyone else here gets this, but you seem to be either
You are equating/confusing/conflating your competence to operate a
bike with your competence as a teacher. The one has very little to
do with the other. As others have pointed out, your competence as
a rider isn't great, but that really isn't the crux of the issue.
Even if we stipulate that you are a highly skilled rider, it doesn't
mean you are qualified to teach even the most basic aspects of riding.
I'm pretty good at mathematics, but I'm a terrible math teacher.
And you are ignoring a crucial point:

How good of a teacher one needs to be depends on the task being taught. For
some skills, yeah, you need to have experience ... helping a student land an
airplane is in this category.

But for other skills, you don't need to be a great teacher.

Teaching someone how to do basic exercises on a bike ... I'm just not seeing
what could go wrong beyond the expected dropping the bike once or maybe
twice.

I'll post a few YouTube videos and you folks can grade me.

DFC
Mark Olson
2011-03-16 15:00:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by Mark Olson
Post by Datesfat Chicks
The fundamental question (which hasn't really been addressed with any
credibility) is whether I'm competent to teach someone what all the
controls on the motorcycle are, how to raise and lower the kickstand, and
how to start, stop, turn, etc. I believe the answer is absolutely "yes".
However, I think the argument of how skilled the instructor is would come
into play if I were teaching racing technique, wheelies and stoppies, etc.
It seems everyone else here gets this, but you seem to be either
You are equating/confusing/conflating your competence to operate a
bike with your competence as a teacher. The one has very little to
do with the other. As others have pointed out, your competence as
a rider isn't great, but that really isn't the crux of the issue.
Even if we stipulate that you are a highly skilled rider, it doesn't
mean you are qualified to teach even the most basic aspects of riding.
I'm pretty good at mathematics, but I'm a terrible math teacher.
How good of a teacher one needs to be depends on the task being taught. For
some skills, yeah, you need to have experience ... helping a student land an
airplane is in this category.
But for other skills, you don't need to be a great teacher.
That's your belief, but mine, and that of many others, including an ex-MSF
instructor, differs violently. Perhaps you should re-examine why your belief
is out of step with the consensus opinion?
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Teaching someone how to do basic exercises on a bike ... I'm just not seeing
what could go wrong beyond the expected dropping the bike once or maybe
twice.
That is not even remotely close to being a good metric for evaluating
whether or not you should be attempting to teach someone to ride.

Why do you think the MSF teaches their instructors HOW to teach someone to ride?
They don't simply look for someone who has been riding a long time. They make
sure that the potential teacher has been shown HOW to teach. It's the HOW that
makes the difference, not the WHAT. You are again confusing WHAT with HOW.
Datesfat Chicks
2011-03-16 15:32:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Olson
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Teaching someone how to do basic exercises on a bike ... I'm just not
seeing what could go wrong beyond the expected dropping the bike once or
maybe twice.
That is not even remotely close to being a good metric for evaluating
whether or not you should be attempting to teach someone to ride.
Why do you think the MSF teaches their instructors HOW to teach someone to ride?
They don't simply look for someone who has been riding a long time. They make
sure that the potential teacher has been shown HOW to teach. It's the HOW that
makes the difference, not the WHAT. You are again confusing WHAT with HOW.
Well, since we're on that topic, I think the MSF instructors didn't do any
better than I would have done, or barely did better.

Now, my flight instructors ... they had some skills that I don't have.

You're all full of shit.

DFC
BryanUT
2011-03-16 15:49:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by Mark Olson
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Teaching someone how to do basic exercises on a bike ... I'm just not
seeing what could go wrong beyond the expected dropping the bike once or
maybe twice.
That is not even remotely close to being a good metric for evaluating
whether or not you should be attempting to teach someone to ride.
Why do you think the MSF teaches their instructors HOW to teach someone to ride?
They don't simply look for someone who has been riding a long time.  They
make
sure that the potential teacher has been shown HOW to teach.  It's the HOW
that
makes the difference, not the WHAT.  You are again confusing WHAT with
HOW.
Well, since we're on that topic, I think the MSF instructors didn't do any
better than I would have done, or barely did better.
Now, my flight instructors ... they had some skills that I don't have.
You're all full of shit.
DFC
Let's see, I have a degree in Elementary Ed, I was a Red Cross Swim
instructor and an alpine ski instructor. Mark is correct and you are
wrong. It is really that simple.

Even though I know how to ride a motorcycle I don't know how to teach
someone. That is why all teachers in all fields are taught to teach.

But you are too stupid to understand that.
Tim
2011-03-16 16:20:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
I think the MSF instructors didn't do any
better than I would have done, or barely did better.
Now, my flight instructors ... they had some skills that I don't have.
You're all full of shit.
DFC
Which begs the question of why you started this thread with the
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Any other advice?
There's a disconnect here. Perhaps your original query would have
been more accurately phrased "Any other advice that I will violently
agree with?"
Road Glidin' Don
2011-03-16 18:48:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim
Post by Datesfat Chicks
I think the MSF instructors didn't do any
better than I would have done, or barely did better.
Now, my flight instructors ... they had some skills that I don't have.
You're all full of shit.
DFC
Which begs the question of why you started this thread with the
Because this is one of the few chances he's had in a long time to have
one-on-one time with a woman of her age and he's all excited and,
being the worry-wart that he is, doesn't want to blow it.

So excited he probably ran out to buy her boots and things, at the
first mention of wanting to learn.
The Older Gentleman
2011-03-16 21:15:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Road Glidin' Don
this is one of the few chances he's had in a long time to have
one-on-one time with a woman of her age and he's all excited and,
being the worry-wart that he is, doesn't want to blow it.
Well, no, that's her job.
--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F Triumph Street Triple
Suzuki TS250ERx2 GN250. Only seven bikes now.
Try Googling before asking a damn silly question.
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
Road Glidin' Don
2011-03-16 22:15:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Older Gentleman
Post by Road Glidin' Don
this is one of the few chances he's had in a long time to have
one-on-one time with a woman of her age and he's all excited and,
being the worry-wart that he is, doesn't want to blow it.
Well, no, that's her job.
<chuckle>
Tim
2011-03-16 16:16:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Teaching someone how to do basic exercises on a bike ... I'm just not seeing
what could go wrong beyond the expected dropping the bike once or maybe
twice.
As previously stated, your inability to even imagine the things that
can go wrong is an indicator of the lack of preparation you have for
the described task. But you don't want to hear that, so you don't.

So, what will you do if the "student" panics and locks the throttle
wfo, and accelerates out of the parking lot, over a curb, down a
grassy embankment, and into traffic on the adjacent street?

What will you do if the motorcycle falls *ON* the "student", trapping
the student's ankle under the exhaust pipe, causing second-degree
burns?

What will you do if the student, while attempting to raise the bike
from its sidestand, loses her balance, falls over *with* the bike,
sticks her arm out to catch herself, and suffers a compound fracture
of her arm?

Those are just three quick examples of things that actually happened
under the controlled conditions of a certified motorcylce rider
training program, run by experienced instructors, on a certified
range, in a state rider training program using a standardized, tested,
curriculum of exercises.

More to the point, perhaps, is what purpose will be served by amateur
training, especially *if* it results in even "innocuous" and
"expected" dropping of the bike? People can, do, and should learn
how to ride WITHOUT dropping of the bike being expected, and many do
so without ever dropping the bike at all.

Perhaps your neighbor deserves that chance.
Datesfat Chicks
2011-03-16 18:04:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Teaching someone how to do basic exercises on a bike ... I'm just not seeing
what could go wrong beyond the expected dropping the bike once or maybe
twice.
As previously stated, your inability to even imagine the things that
can go wrong is an indicator of the lack of preparation you have for
the described task. But you don't want to hear that, so you don't.
So, what will you do if the "student" panics and locks the throttle
wfo, and accelerates out of the parking lot, over a curb, down a
grassy embankment, and into traffic on the adjacent street?
That would be unlikely with Janet. She is familiar with mechanical things
in general, can ride a bicycle, and can drive a stick.

One of the first exercises I'd do with her, of course, is to show her how to
start the motorcycle, how to use the engine cutoff switch, how to brake,
etc. I might even do those things with me on the back (just for a bit,
despite the weight restrictions).

And then there are the traditional rocking and duck walk exercises.

And then there is the wrist angle.

Also, we will be on a LARGE piece of pavement with no curbs at the edges.
That gives her a LONG time to think without panicing. She'll do fine.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
What will you do if the motorcycle falls *ON* the "student", trapping
the student's ankle under the exhaust pipe, causing second-degree
burns?
She'll be wearing proper boots. Also, I know from experience that the rear
turn signals, the handlebars, and the pegs won't allow that to happen. And
I'll be there to get it off of her quickly (but of course that is still long
enough for a burn).
Post by Datesfat Chicks
What will you do if the student, while attempting to raise the bike
from its sidestand, loses her balance, falls over *with* the bike,
sticks her arm out to catch herself, and suffers a compound fracture
of her arm?
There are exercises for that as well. And I'll be on the right side of the
bike the first few times.

And she'll be wearing one of my jackets with foam in the forearms and
elbows. (Something that most MSF BRC students aren't wearing.)
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Those are just three quick examples of things that actually happened
under the controlled conditions of a certified motorcylce rider
training program, run by experienced instructors, on a certified
range, in a state rider training program using a standardized, tested,
curriculum of exercises.
Ah, fair enough.

But don't forget that I know the student, and there is only one student.

Believe me, if there was anything in her personality that I was afraid of, I
wouldn't be doing this. I've watched her drive a car (with me in it), and
she knows enough. She'll be fine.

In the general case, with the traditional MSF herd ... I'm not qualified.

But with a single person where I know the aptitudes ... it will be fine.

Also, she will be the third untrained woman that I've showed how to tool
around at low speed on my bike. The other two didn't panic. I think she'll
actually do better than the other two.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
More to the point, perhaps, is what purpose will be served by amateur
training, especially *if* it results in even "innocuous" and
"expected" dropping of the bike? People can, do, and should learn
how to ride WITHOUT dropping of the bike being expected, and many do
so without ever dropping the bike at all.
Actually, I can do a better job of creating a comfortable learning
environment than the MSF. The MSF classes are cattle classes, and they
typically force students to do things they are uncomfortable with at every
step. That is necessary (otherwise it isn't quick learning), but it isn't a
very friendly environment.

As far as the purpose ... I'd just like to get her riding around, starting,
braking, shifting in both directions, and doing box exercises. That way the
MSF class will be unthreatening and she can refine her technique and listen
carefully to what the instructors say rather than being in a constant state
of terror.

I don't claim to be as effective as the MSF for what it does. It will take
me about 4 times as long to teach her 2/3 of the skills ... but it won't be
threatening.

And I've found that a lot of the coaching in the MSF course was lacking.
They didn't give a lot of coaching in the box exercises except to emphasize
staying constantly under power. I can explain why that is an effective
technique, and show her other control techniques in more detail.

There were a lot of other defects in the coaching and instruction as well.
I'm a little better at it.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Perhaps your neighbor deserves that chance.
I'll tell you what chances my neighbor deserves:

a)My neighbor deserves the chance to take a break any time she wants and
chat and enjoy the sunshine, rather than being stuck with a herd in the sun.

b)My neighbor deserves the chance to obtain competent coaching and competent
explanations about questions she might ask, like:

1)Why countersteering is taught explicitly (rather than just relying on a
person's bicycle skills).

2)Why certain techniques work in box exercises and certain techniques don't
and additional techniques to try.

3)Why it is important to keep your head up and look where you intend to go
(in most cases).

4)And so on.

c)My neighbor deserves the chance to not do exercises that she isn't
immediately comfortable with until she is comfortable with them.

d)My neighbor deserves the chance to go outside the lines of a box or lock a
rear wheel without the instructor yelling and without feeling intimidated
because other students seem to be doing it better.

DFC.
Tim
2011-03-16 19:22:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Teaching someone how to do basic exercises on a bike ... I'm just not seeing
what could go wrong beyond the expected dropping the bike once or maybe
twice.
As previously stated, your inability to even imagine the things that
can go wrong is an indicator of the lack of preparation you have for
the described task.  But you don't want to hear that, so you don't.
So, what will you do if the "student"  panics and locks the throttle
wfo, and accelerates out of the parking lot, over a curb, down a
grassy embankment, and into traffic on the adjacent street?
That would be unlikely with Janet.  She is familiar with mechanical things
in general, can ride a bicycle, and can drive a stick.
It is unlikely in the extreme with any student. However, we are not
talking about odds, we are responding to your request for opinions,
and susequently, your question "what could go wrong."
One of the first exercises I'd do with her, of course, is to show her how to
start the motorcycle, how to use the engine cutoff switch, how to brake,
etc.  I might even do those things with me on the back (just for a bit,
despite the weight restrictions).
And then there are the traditional rocking and duck walk exercises.
And then there is the wrist angle.
Also, we will be on a LARGE piece of pavement with no curbs at the edges.
That gives her a LONG time to think without panicing.  She'll do fine.
She may do fine; she may not. You asked for opinions, and they were
given. If you had previously made up your mind, then opinions would
not be needed. Clearly, opinions are not valued or considered, so why
request them?
Post by Datesfat Chicks
What will you do if the motorcycle falls *ON* the "student", trapping
the student's ankle under the exhaust pipe, causing second-degree
burns?
She'll be wearing proper boots.  Also, I know from experience that the rear
turn signals, the handlebars, and the pegs won't allow that to happen.  And
I'll be there to get it off of her quickly (but of course that is still long
enough for a burn).
Yes. Interestingly enough, motorcycles sometimes do things that we do
not expect, and sometimes we are not able to react to or correct
situations as we had hoped we would.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
What will you do if the student, while attempting to raise the bike
from its sidestand, loses her balance, falls over *with* the bike,
sticks her arm out to catch herself, and suffers a compound fracture
of her arm?
There are exercises for that as well.  And I'll be on the right side of the
bike the first few times.
And she'll be wearing one of my jackets with foam in the forearms and
elbows.  (Something that most MSF BRC students aren't wearing.)
None of which will guarantee that such an accident will not befall
your student, either under your amateur tutelege or at the BRC.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Those are just three quick examples of things that actually happened
under the controlled conditions of a certified motorcylce rider
training program, run by experienced instructors, on a certified
range, in a state rider training program using a standardized, tested,
curriculum of exercises.
Ah, fair enough.
But don't forget that I know the student, and there is only one student.
I will say that I have taught a fair number of folks personally. I
taught them one-on-one. Believe me, there was no advantage conferred
by the student/teacher ratio.
Believe me, if there was anything in her personality that I was afraid of, I
wouldn't be doing this.  I've watched her drive a car (with me in it), and
she knows enough.  She'll be fine.
In which case, no opinions need be sought, responded to, or discarded.
In the general case, with the traditional MSF herd ... I'm not qualified.
Well, now we come to the crux of the issue, don't we. It has been
clear in this thread that you hold the MSF-curriculum rider training
courses offered in your area in contempt.
But with a single person where I know the aptitudes ... it will be fine.
In which case, no opinions need be sought, responded to, or discarded.
Also, she will be the third untrained woman that I've showed how to tool
around at low speed on my bike.  The other two didn't panic.  I think she'll
actually do better than the other two.
In which case, no opinions need be sought, responded to, or discarded.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
More to the point, perhaps, is what purpose will be served by amateur
training, especially *if* it results in even "innocuous" and
"expected" dropping of the bike?   People can, do, and should learn
how to ride WITHOUT dropping of the bike being expected, and many do
so without ever dropping the bike at all.
Actually, I can do a better job of creating a comfortable learning
environment than the MSF.  The MSF classes are cattle classes, and they
typically force students to do things they are uncomfortable with at every
step.  That is necessary (otherwise it isn't quick learning), but it isn't a
very friendly environment.
I'm afraid that I do not share your opinion of the MSF-curriculum
classes.
As far as the purpose ... I'd just like to get her riding around, starting,
braking, shifting in both directions, and doing box exercises.  That way the
MSF class will be unthreatening and she can refine her technique and listen
carefully to what the instructors say rather than being in a constant state
of terror.
If she is in a constant state of terror during a certified state rider
training program that utilizes the MSF curriculum and riding coaches,
then either she does not have the personality that you described
earlier, or the riding coaches are not doing their job properly. No
amateur preparation is required for successful and enjoyable
completion of a certified state rider training program that utilizes
the MSF curriculum and riding coaches, as long as the coaches follow
the curriculum and adhere to their training and professional
standards.
I don't claim to be as effective as the MSF for what it does.  It will take
me about 4 times as long to teach her 2/3 of the skills ... but it won't be
threatening.
No student in a certified state rider training program that utilizes
the MSF curriculum and riding coaches should find the class
threatening. If they do, it is because the coaches are either
deviating from the curriculum, or deviating from their training, or
failing to adhere own professional standards.
And I've found that a lot of the coaching in the MSF course was lacking.
I have not. I have observed a wide range of coaching acumen among the
hundreds of coaches I coached with over the years, some better than
others, some extremely talented and some just barely scraping by.
But I have not seen a lot of coaching that was lacking in certified
state rider training programs that utilize the MSF curriculum.
They didn't give a lot of coaching in the box exercises except to emphasize
staying constantly under power.
If you were a certified instructor, you would understand both that
they should not be giving a lot of coaching in the box exercises, as
well as WHY they should not. As an amateur coach, why don't you
describe your opinion of why a lot of coaching should be given in the
box exercises, and what that coaching would be, and how and why it
would benefit the students in the exercises?
 I can explain why that is an effective
technique, and show her other control techniques in more detail.
I would be interested in hearing exatly how you plan to do that.
There were a lot of other defects in the coaching and instruction as well.
I'm a little better at it.
In that case, perhaps you might consider performing a public service
and take the MSF Coaching preparation course, become an MSF-certified
RiderCoach, and gfo to work for your local state certified rider
training program, both to improve the level of the coaching that is
given there, and to give something back to the sport that provides you
with so much pleasure and joy.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Perhaps your neighbor deserves that chance.
a)My neighbor deserves the chance to take a break any time she wants and
chat and enjoy the sunshine, rather than being stuck with a herd in the sun.
b)My neighbor deserves the chance to obtain competent coaching and competent
1)Why countersteering is taught explicitly (rather than just relying on a
person's bicycle skills).
2)Why certain techniques work in box exercises and certain techniques don't
and additional techniques to try.
3)Why it is important to keep your head up and look where you intend to go
(in most cases).
4)And so on.
c)My neighbor deserves the chance to not do exercises that she isn't
immediately comfortable with until she is comfortable with them.
d)My neighbor deserves the chance to go outside the lines of a box or lock a
rear wheel without the instructor yelling and without feeling intimidated
because other students seem to be doing it better.
My question to you, then, is simple. Why on earth would you allow
your neighbor to take a class that utilizes the MSF curriculum and MSF-
certified Rider Coaches, when you can do such a much better job, and
the chances of her being threatened, intimidated, yelled at,
uncomfortable, and incompetently coached and taught?

Sounds like you are not being a very good neighbor, at all.

In my opinion.
Datesfat Chicks
2011-03-16 21:35:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
But don't forget that I know the student, and there is only one student.
I will say that I have taught a fair number of folks personally. I
taught them one-on-one. Believe me, there was no advantage conferred
by the student/teacher ratio.
That is an interesting observation. I would have thought it is more relaxed
for the student to go 1:1.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
In the general case, with the traditional MSF herd ... I'm not qualified.
Well, now we come to the crux of the issue, don't we. It has been
clear in this thread that you hold the MSF-curriculum rider training
courses offered in your area in contempt.
No, not in contempt. They are valuable courses, and they saved lives. They
certainly saved my life (which everyone on this newsgroup may at this point
regret).

Seriously, there are economic reasons why you can't go too slowly in the
class or have too low a student to instructor ratio. And everyone has a
different way of explaining things ... it may just be a disconnect.

I don't think there is any way to conduct a class economically and make it
as comfortable as possible for the students.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by Tim
More to the point, perhaps, is what purpose will be served by amateur
training, especially *if* it results in even "innocuous" and
"expected" dropping of the bike? People can, do, and should learn
how to ride WITHOUT dropping of the bike being expected, and many do
so without ever dropping the bike at all.
Actually, I can do a better job of creating a comfortable learning
environment than the MSF. The MSF classes are cattle classes, and they
typically force students to do things they are uncomfortable with at every
step. That is necessary (otherwise it isn't quick learning), but it isn't
a
very friendly environment.
I'm afraid that I do not share your opinion of the MSF-curriculum
classes.
I've had these negative experiences and known people who've had these
negative experience with the courses:

a)Baking the students in the hot sun (no shade, hot asphalt).

b)Conducting the classes in the rain.

c)Forcing students to do maximum braking maneuvers in the rain on asphalt,
resulting in unnecessary falls.

d)Inability of the coaching staff to answer basic questions or answer basic
questions in a way that makes sense to me.

e)Using motorcycles that had bent controls or were otherwise marginally
serviceable.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
If she is in a constant state of terror during a certified state rider
training program that utilizes the MSF curriculum and riding coaches,
then either she does not have the personality that you described
earlier, or the riding coaches are not doing their job properly. No
amateur preparation is required for successful and enjoyable
completion of a certified state rider training program that utilizes
the MSF curriculum and riding coaches, as long as the coaches follow
the curriculum and adhere to their training and professional
standards.
You've probably become jaded as an instructor, and enjoy terrorizing the
cattle yourself to the point that it seems natural and normal.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
They didn't give a lot of coaching in the box exercises except to emphasize
staying constantly under power.
If you were a certified instructor, you would understand both that
they should not be giving a lot of coaching in the box exercises, as
well as WHY they should not. As an amateur coach, why don't you
describe your opinion of why a lot of coaching should be given in the
box exercises, and what that coaching would be, and how and why it
would benefit the students in the exercises?
I can explain why that is an effective
technique, and show her other control techniques in more detail.
I would be interested in hearing exatly how you plan to do that.
In my case, they just showed me the box, demonsrated an instructor riding
through the exercise, and said "go to it". There was also the hint that
keeping power constant might help, and looking where you're going might also
help.

The reason that keeping power constant helps is that balancing the bike is
done using the handlebars, and too low a speed means you don't have enough
control authority. Varying the speed also makes the motorcycle harder to
control.

However, that isn't the single right answer. If one looks at for example
this video:



the guy is modulating the power as an additional method of balancing the
bike. However, this is not a technique suitable for a first-time rider.

You can also shift your body weight.

I would have appreciated some theory as to what the control laws were.

Naturally, I wouldn't expect Janet to perform as well as me in a tight pylon
course without at least three weeks of daily practice. Explaining it to her
won't help immediately -- you need to actually experiment with the bike over
a period of time before the brain figures it out. You can't do it in one
day or even in two days.

But it would help her to know that modulating the power in response to the
the leaning of the bike is an acceptable control technique, and that an
experienced rider doing a box exercise will typically do something similar
to the police video linked to above.

At least in flight training, when explaining landing approaches, they
explain the control techniques (power and pitch and how they are used).
They don't just put you in a plane and say "Arrive at the runway threshold
about 20 feet above the ground goin 65 knots, and by the way good luck".
Post by Datesfat Chicks
There were a lot of other defects in the coaching and instruction as well.
I'm a little better at it.
In that case, perhaps you might consider performing a public service
and take the MSF Coaching preparation course, become an MSF-certified
RiderCoach, and gfo to work for your local state certified rider
training program, both to improve the level of the coaching that is
given there, and to give something back to the sport that provides you
with so much pleasure and joy.
Unless it pays about $50/hour or more, I won't touch it.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
My question to you, then, is simple. Why on earth would you allow
your neighbor to take a class that utilizes the MSF curriculum and MSF-
certified Rider Coaches, when you can do such a much better job, and
the chances of her being threatened, intimidated, yelled at,
uncomfortable, and incompetently coached and taught?
Sounds like you are not being a very good neighbor, at all.
The MSF course is the easiest way to get a cycle endorsement.

I do not hold the course or instructors in contempt.

I just think it is inherently a cruel cattle arrangement.

DFC.
WaIIy
2011-03-16 23:01:47 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:35:40 -0400, "Datesfat Chicks"
Post by Datesfat Chicks
a)Baking the students in the hot sun (no shade, hot asphalt).
b)Conducting the classes in the rain.
Well, I guess she won't riding in the sun or the rain.
tomorrow@erols.com
2011-03-17 00:15:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
I've had these negative experiences and known people who've had these
a)Baking the students in the hot sun (no shade, hot asphalt).
With breaks between exercises. People ride motorcycles in the hot
sun, with no shade, on the hot asphalt. Surely that is not a
negative experience.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
b)Conducting the classes in the rain.
A very positive and vcaluable experience, imo.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
c)Forcing students to do maximum braking maneuvers in the rain on asphalt,
resulting in unnecessary falls.
Of course, no one is "forced" to do ANY exercise in the class. That
is clearly spelled out in the course curriculum. However, being
PERMITTED to perform maximum brakling exercises in the rain, under the
tutelage of trained coaches, is a VERY positive and VERY valuable
experience that many, many more motorcyclists (experienced and
otherwise) would certainly benefit from. Unneccessary falls? Hell,
any falls your neighbor takes under your tutelage will be ENTIRELY
unneccessary, and you have displayed a completely cavalier attitude
about those protential falls. Certainly any falls she takes under
your stewardship will FAIL to carry with them the invaluable,
potentially lifesaving lessons falling while practicing maximum
braking in the rain will impart.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
d)Inability of the coaching staff to answer basic questions or answer basic
questions in a way that makes sense to me.
Well, given you inability to comprehend, clear, concise, well-written
answers to many of your "basic questions" in this forum leads me to
believe that the coaching staff was not the problem. However, there
are feedback forms, anonymous, of course, after each class, and
student evaluations are taken very seriously by state agency personnel
reviewing them. Hopefully, you tore those incompetent coaches new
assholes as you left your class.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
e)Using motorcycles that had bent controls or were otherwise marginally
serviceable.
Which differ from the bike you are foisting on your neighbor which has
been crashed multiple times... how?
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by Tim
If she is in a constant state of terror during a certified state rider
training program that utilizes the MSF curriculum and riding coaches,
then either she does not have the personality that you described
earlier, or the riding coaches are not doing their job properly.   No
amateur preparation is required for successful and enjoyable
completion of a certified state rider training program that utilizes
the MSF curriculum and riding coaches, as long as the coaches follow
the curriculum and adhere to their training and professional
standards.
You've probably become jaded as an instructor, and enjoy terrorizing the
cattle yourself to the point that it seems natural and normal.
Excellent. You have descended to your natural level. I retired from
coaching in 2004, after 14 years of "terrorizing the cattle" and
enjoying it immensely.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by Tim
They didn't give a lot of coaching in the box exercises except to emphasize
staying constantly under power.
If you were a certified instructor, you would understand both that
they should not be giving a lot of coaching in the box exercises, as
well as WHY they should not.  As an amateur coach, why don't you
describe your opinion of why a lot of coaching should be given in the
box exercises, and what that coaching would be, and how and why it
would benefit the students in the exercises?
I can explain why that is an effective
technique, and show her other control techniques in more detail.
I would be interested in hearing exatly how you plan to do that.
In my case, they just showed me the box, demonsrated an instructor riding
through the exercise, and said "go to it".  There was also the hint that
keeping power constant might help, and looking where you're going might also
help.
Ni instruction on weight shifting? No ionstruction on path of
travel? No reminder to use the previously practiced and master
"clutch friction zone" to control speed? No reminders to keep you
head and eyes up, don't look down at the lines, look for your exit
path? Hopefully, you tore those incompetent coaches new assholes as
you left your class.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
The reason that keeping power constant helps is that balancing the bike is
done using the handlebars, and too low a speed means you don't have enough
control authority.  Varying the speed also makes the motorcycle harder to
control.
I'm sure that "clear and concise" explanation will help your neighbor
ride the box under your expert tutelage.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
However, that isn't the single right answer.  If one looks at for example
http://youtu.be/99KKx7cB-Ok
the guy is modulating the power as an additional method of balancing the
bike.  However, this is not a technique suitable for a first-time rider.
You can also shift your body weight.
I would have appreciated some theory as to what the control laws were.
Has it occurred to you since that experience that the BRC is not the
place for theory?
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Naturally, I wouldn't expect Janet to perform as well as me in a tight pylon
course without at least three weeks of daily practice.  Explaining it to her
won't help immediately -- you need to actually experiment with the bike over
a period of time before the brain figures it out.  You can't do it in one
day or even in two days.
Has it occurred to you that the BRC is NOT about mastering techniques,
but about being introduced to proper riding techniques and proper
mental riding strategies? http://youtu.be/99KKx7cB-Ok
Post by Datesfat Chicks
But it would help her to know that modulating the power in response to the
the leaning of the bike is an acceptable control technique,
"Modulate the power in response to the leaning of the bike." Yeah,
that will help a novice rider. Hopefully, you tore those incompetent
coaches new assholes as you left your class.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
and that an
experienced rider doing a box exercise will typically do something similar
to the police video linked to above.
Yes, seeing the way experienced riders perform specialized manuevers
will certainly help a novice rider before she ever takes the Basic
Rider Course.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
At least in flight training, when explaining landing approaches, they
explain the control techniques (power and pitch and how they are used).
They don't just put you in a plane and say "Arrive at the runway threshold
about 20 feet above the ground goin 65 knots, and by the way good luck".
I don;t recall any exercises where my MSF Chief Instructors instructed
us to teach them in a manner remotely resembling the above fantasy.
Hopefully, you tore those incompetent coaches new assholes as you left
your class.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by Tim
There were a lot of other defects in the coaching and instruction as well.
I'm a little better at it.
In that case, perhaps you might consider performing a public service
and take the MSF Coaching preparation course, become an MSF-certified
RiderCoach, and gfo to work for your local state certified rider
training program, both to improve the level of the coaching that is
given there, and to give something back to the sport that provides you
with so much pleasure and joy.
Unless it pays about $50/hour or more, I won't touch it.
IOW, it's too hard for you to learn, too hard for you to do, and you
are too lazy and insecure to take the chance that you won't measure
up, so you'll play-act for free.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by Tim
My question to you, then, is simple.   Why on earth would you allow
your neighbor to take a class that utilizes the MSF curriculum and MSF-
certified Rider Coaches, when you can do such a much better job, and
the chances of her being threatened, intimidated, yelled at,
uncomfortable, and incompetently coached and taught?
Sounds like you are not being a very good neighbor, at all.
The MSF course is the easiest way to get a cycle endorsement.
Total cop-out.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
I do not hold the course or instructors in contempt.
You could have (and did) fooled me.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
I just think it is inherently a cruel cattle arrangement.
Hopefully, you tore those incompetent coaches new assholes as you left
your class.
BryanUT
2011-03-17 00:33:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@erols.com
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by Tim
In that case, perhaps you might consider performing a public service
and take the MSF Coaching preparation course, become an MSF-certified
RiderCoach, and gfo to work for your local state certified rider
training program, both to improve the level of the coaching that is
given there, and to give something back to the sport that provides you
with so much pleasure and joy.
Unless it pays about $50/hour or more, I won't touch it.
IOW, it's too hard for you to learn, too hard for you to do, and you
are too lazy and insecure to take the chance that you won't measure
up, so you'll play-act for free.
Hell, I paid good money to learn to be a ski instructor and paid a lot
more to get my degree in Elementary Ed.

Man if the MSF guys will teach me to be a coach for free I'd jump all
over that experience.
tomorrow@erols.com
2011-03-17 01:31:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by BryanUT
Post by ***@erols.com
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by Tim
In that case, perhaps you might consider performing a public service
and take the MSF Coaching preparation course, become an MSF-certified
RiderCoach, and gfo to work for your local state certified rider
training program, both to improve the level of the coaching that is
given there, and to give something back to the sport that provides you
with so much pleasure and joy.
Unless it pays about $50/hour or more, I won't touch it.
IOW, it's too hard for you to learn, too hard for you to do, and you
are too lazy and insecure to take the chance that you won't measure
up, so you'll play-act for free.
Hell, I paid good money to learn to be a ski instructor and paid a lot
more to get my degree in Elementary Ed.
Man if the MSF guys will teach me to be a coach for free I'd jump all
over that experience.
I paid $500 to spend three consecutive 4-day weekends taking the
instructor prep course in 1991, then took the final exam by student
teaching a full BRC (gratis) on the fourth consecutive week-end, with
three senior Chief Instructors watching and grading. You were
permitted one mistake all weekend. Two mistakes and you failed.

I then taught for 14 years, never making more than $14 per hour on the
schedule, and never making more than $11 per hour in actual time
invested.

It was worth it. It made me a vastly better rider and teacher. For
many, many, years I had former students come up to me in all sorts of
venues, shake my hand, and tell me "Man, you taught me to ride. I
still ride. I love riding. Thank-you, man."

Yeah, it was well worth it. I'd do it all over again.
The Older Gentleman
2011-03-17 07:25:32 UTC
Permalink
Datesfat Chicks <***@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>
Post by Datesfat Chicks
I do not hold the course or instructors in contempt.
You do seem to be going to extraordinary lengths to justify your
position, and you're straying dangerously close to Fantasy Island.

You ain't the first to do this, and I'm sure you won't be the last, but
it's probably best to stop now before you make a *real* clown of
yourself before a global audience.
--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F Triumph Street Triple
Suzuki TS250ERx2 GN250. Only seven bikes now.
Try Googling before asking a damn silly question.
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
Bob Myers
2011-03-16 20:30:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
a)My neighbor deserves the chance to take a break any time she wants
and chat and enjoy the sunshine, rather than being stuck with a herd
in the sun.
In other words, the chance not to take the training environment
seriously, and give the task at hand the needed attention (including
repetition within a short period of time, exposure to the distractions
of others in the "herd," etc., etc., etc.)?
Post by Datesfat Chicks
b)My neighbor deserves the chance to obtain competent coaching and
That's why she's taking the MSF course, right?
Post by Datesfat Chicks
1)Why countersteering is taught explicitly (rather than just relying
on a person's bicycle skills).
2)Why certain techniques work in box exercises and certain techniques
don't and additional techniques to try.
Like what? I.e., once again (with feeling): just what is it you think
you can give her in the "personal" instruction that is likely to be
truly positive and will help her over and above what she's going to get
in the MSF BRC anyway? What techniques are you going to impart, and how
are you certain that these do not in large part include bad habits of
your own?
Post by Datesfat Chicks
c)My neighbor deserves the chance to not do exercises that she isn't
immediately comfortable with until she is comfortable with them.
...in the presence of a trained, qualified instructor, in a very
closely-controlled environment, and without undue risk and liability
issues, and on a bike which is well-suited to this sort of instruction.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
d)My neighbor deserves the chance to go outside the lines of a box or
lock a rear wheel without the instructor yelling and without feeling
intimidated because other students seem to be doing it better.
I have never, ever, seen an MSF instructor yell at a student, unless it
was to get their attention for something that needed correction RIGHT
NOW. How many students have YOU taught? And based on that experience,
how confident are you that YOU won't panic/yell/do exactly the wrong
thing when something does go awry (and it will)?

Is there, in fact, ANY reason you are doing this beyond the desire to
play instructor for a bit?

Bob M.
Beauregard T. Shagnasty
2011-03-16 21:24:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Myers
Is there, in fact, ANY reason you are doing this beyond the desire to
play instructor for a bit?
He hasn't gotten laid in a *very* long time!!!!1!!
--
-bts
-Could. Not. Resist.
Twibil
2011-03-16 23:30:42 UTC
Permalink
On Mar 16, 2:24 pm, "Beauregard T. Shagnasty"
Post by Beauregard T. Shagnasty
Post by Bob Myers
Is there, in fact, ANY reason you are doing this beyond the desire to
play instructor for a bit?
He hasn't gotten laid in a *very* long time!!!!1!!
I must admit that gives a different context to "Laying her down".
The Older Gentleman
2011-03-17 07:25:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Beauregard T. Shagnasty
Post by Bob Myers
Is there, in fact, ANY reason you are doing this beyond the desire to
play instructor for a bit?
He hasn't gotten laid in a *very* long time!!!!1!!
<Light dawns>

Of course. Why didn't I think of this?

Gold star, top of the class, blackboard monitor and all the usual awards
to you.
--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F Triumph Street Triple
Suzuki TS250ERx2 GN250. Only seven bikes now.
Try Googling before asking a damn silly question.
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
MikeWhy
2011-03-20 08:24:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim
So, what will you do if the "student" panics and locks the throttle
wfo, and accelerates out of the parking lot, over a curb, down a
...
Post by Tim
What will you do if the motorcycle falls *ON* the "student", trapping
...
Post by Tim
What will you do if the student, while attempting to raise the bike
...
Post by Tim
Those are just three quick examples of things that actually happened
under the controlled conditions of a certified motorcylce rider
training program, run by experienced instructors, on a certified
range, in a state rider training program using a standardized, tested,
curriculum of exercises.
??? Don't they just make you hobble it off, or sit in the corner until
you're no longer a hazard to the class? What does one do? What secret things
do are certified motorcycle instructor taught to do in those forseeable
incidents? ???
tomorrow@erols.com
2011-03-20 22:12:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by MikeWhy
Post by Datesfat Chicks
So, what will you do if the "student"  panics and locks the throttle
wfo, and accelerates out of the parking lot, over a curb, down a
...
Post by Datesfat Chicks
What will you do if the motorcycle falls *ON* the "student", trapping
...
Post by Datesfat Chicks
What will you do if the student, while attempting to raise the bike
...
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Those are just three quick examples of things that actually happened
under the controlled conditions of a certified motorcylce rider
training program, run by experienced instructors, on a certified
range, in a state rider training program using a standardized, tested,
curriculum of exercises.
??? Don't they just make you hobble it off, or sit in the corner until
you're no longer a hazard to the class? What does one do? What secret things
do are certified motorcycle instructor taught to do in those forseeable
incidents? ???
Drop back 6 yards, then punt. Of course.
Datesfat Chicks
2011-03-21 19:46:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by MikeWhy
Post by Tim
So, what will you do if the "student" panics and locks the throttle
wfo, and accelerates out of the parking lot, over a curb, down a
...
Post by Tim
What will you do if the motorcycle falls *ON* the "student", trapping
...
Post by Tim
What will you do if the student, while attempting to raise the bike
...
Post by Tim
Those are just three quick examples of things that actually happened
under the controlled conditions of a certified motorcylce rider
training program, run by experienced instructors, on a certified
range, in a state rider training program using a standardized, tested,
curriculum of exercises.
??? Don't they just make you hobble it off, or sit in the corner until
you're no longer a hazard to the class? What does one do? What secret
things do are certified motorcycle instructor taught to do in those
forseeable incidents? ???
You really hit on a key point.

How is a motorcycle instructor really better than me for simple exercises or
for mishaps that occur ("secret things")?

I don't think a motorcycle instructor is better than me for simple things.

I can teach a person to make the motorcycle go and stop just as well as a
real instructor.

Janet finished the classroom part of the class this past Saturday.

Today her and I talked about braking, countersteering, and box exercises.

The specific countersteering topics we talked about were:

a)Drifting towards the outside of a curve on an interchange ramp.

b)Overshooting the lane boundary when turning out into traffic (the
acceleration means that even more countersteering is required to hold a
constant-radius trajectory).

c)Decreasing-radius curves.

d)Swerving.

e)Why it is necessary for the MSF to teach countersteering explicitly
(rather than relying on bicycle skills).

On the first warm weekend, we'll be out in a parking lot generating more
money for the Honda Parts Empire.

DFC
Tim
2011-03-21 20:01:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by MikeWhy
Post by Datesfat Chicks
So, what will you do if the "student"  panics and locks the throttle
wfo, and accelerates out of the parking lot, over a curb, down a
...
Post by Datesfat Chicks
What will you do if the motorcycle falls *ON* the "student", trapping
...
Post by Datesfat Chicks
What will you do if the student, while attempting to raise the bike
...
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Those are just three quick examples of things that actually happened
under the controlled conditions of a certified motorcylce rider
training program, run by experienced instructors, on a certified
range, in a state rider training program using a standardized, tested,
curriculum of exercises.
??? Don't they just make you hobble it off, or sit in the corner until
you're no longer a hazard to the class? What does one do? What secret
things do are certified motorcycle instructor taught to do in those
forseeable incidents? ???
You really hit on a key point.
How is a motorcycle instructor really better than me for simple exercises or
for mishaps that occur ("secret things")?
I don't think a motorcycle instructor is better than me for simple things.
I can teach a person to make the motorcycle go and stop just as well as a
real instructor.
Janet finished the classroom part of the class this past Saturday.
Today her and I talked about braking, countersteering, and box exercises.
a)Drifting towards the outside of a curve on an interchange ramp.
b)Overshooting the lane boundary when turning out into traffic (the
acceleration means that even more countersteering is required to hold a
constant-radius trajectory).
c)Decreasing-radius curves.
d)Swerving.
e)Why it is necessary for the MSF to teach countersteering explicitly
(rather than relying on bicycle skills).
Haven't heard your dissertation on visual control for a) or use of the
clutch friction zone for b), or lane positioning for c) or separating
braking from swerving in d) but I'm sure that's just a simple
oversight. After all, your instruction is bound to be as good as, but
less intimidating than, an MSF coach. Wouldn't you want her to get
that information from you, too? Or is it just that it is not at all
important? Ot maybe those are among your "secret things."
Post by Datesfat Chicks
On the first warm weekend, we'll be out in a parking lot generating more
money for the Honda Parts Empire.
Why wait for it to be warm? I'm sure your teaching skills will be
just as effective if it is cold, and after all, you've already pointed
out that it doesn't matter if the student crashes and falls numerous
times.
Datesfat Chicks
2011-03-21 21:13:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim
Haven't heard your dissertation on visual control for a) or use of the
clutch friction zone for b), or lane positioning for c) or separating
braking from swerving in d) but I'm sure that's just a simple
oversight. After all, your instruction is bound to be as good as, but
less intimidating than, an MSF coach. Wouldn't you want her to get
that information from you, too? Or is it just that it is not at all
important? Ot maybe those are among your "secret things."
The "separation of swerving and braking" thing is just a right-wing myth,
like AIDS.

Everybody knows that actual tires contain two different additives, Brakium
and Swervium. Brakium provides the friction necessary for braking forces,
and Swervium for swerving forces. The two do not interact in any way.

It is perfectly acceptable to brake hard then swerve with the brakes still
applied. Nothing bad could possibly happen.

In all seriousness ... I'm just helping her with basic motor skills so she
can hop on a bike during the MSF course and really listen to what the
instructors are saying because she is fairly relaxed about operating the
thing.

The fact that I believe she should take the MSF course and I'm just helping
he be more comfortable should tell you something.

What it should tell you is that I believe trained instructors have something
to offer that I can't.
Post by Tim
On the first warm weekend, we'll be out in a parking lot generating more
money for the Honda Parts Empire.
Why wait for it to be warm? I'm sure your teaching skills will be
just as effective if it is cold, and after all, you've already pointed
out that it doesn't matter if the student crashes and falls numerous
times.
You're right. Since consensus on this newsgroup is that making cattle ...
er, I mean students ... miserable by holding classes in the rain is
acceptable, I guess dry cold can't be any worse.

DFC
Tim
2011-03-21 21:30:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by Tim
Haven't heard your dissertation on visual control for a) or use of the
clutch friction zone for b), or lane positioning for c) or separating
braking from swerving in d) but I'm sure that's just a simple
oversight.  After all, your instruction is bound to be as good as, but
less intimidating than, an MSF coach.  Wouldn't you want her to get
that information from you, too?   Or is it just that it is not at all
important?  Ot maybe those are among your "secret things."
The "separation of swerving and braking" thing is just a right-wing myth,
like AIDS.
Everybody knows that actual tires contain two different additives, Brakium
and Swervium.  Brakium provides the friction necessary for braking forces,
and Swervium for swerving forces.  The two do not interact in any way.
It is perfectly acceptable to brake hard then swerve with the brakes still
applied.  Nothing bad could possibly happen.
In all seriousness ... I'm just helping her with basic motor skills so she
can hop on a bike during the MSF course and really listen to what the
instructors are saying because she is fairly relaxed about operating the
thing.
The fact that I believe she should take the MSF course and I'm just helping
he be more comfortable should tell you something.
What it should tell you is that I believe trained instructors have something
to offer that I can't.
Post by Tim
On the first warm weekend, we'll be out in a parking lot generating more
money for the Honda Parts Empire.
Why wait for it to be warm?   I'm sure your teaching skills will be
just as effective if it is cold, and after all, you've already pointed
out that it doesn't matter if the student crashes and falls numerous
times.
You're right.  Since consensus on this newsgroup is that making cattle ...
er, I mean students ... miserable by holding classes in the rain is
acceptable, I guess dry cold can't be any worse.
DFC
Glad to see some sense is finally seeping in through the cracks!
The Older Gentleman
2011-03-21 22:30:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
How is a motorcycle instructor really better than me for simple exercises or
for mishaps that occur ("secret things")?
Experience. The instructor will have seen it happen a hundred times
before.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
I don't think a motorcycle instructor is better than me for simple things.
WRONG

FFS.
--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F Triumph Street Triple
Suzuki TS250ERx2 GN250. Only seven bikes now.
Try Googling before asking a damn silly question.
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
tomorrow@erols.com
2011-03-22 00:14:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Older Gentleman
Post by Datesfat Chicks
How is a motorcycle instructor really better than me for simple exercises or
for mishaps that occur ("secret things")?
Experience. The instructor will have seen it happen a hundred times
before.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
I don't think a motorcycle instructor is better than me for simple things.
WRONG
FFS.
But look at the bright side: DFC's noob will be the only one in her
class who will be able to swerve and brake simutaneously, and thus
will be able to teach the riding coaches something!
Datesfat Chicks
2011-03-22 02:46:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Older Gentleman
Post by Datesfat Chicks
How is a motorcycle instructor really better than me for simple exercises or
for mishaps that occur ("secret things")?
Experience. The instructor will have seen it happen a hundred times
before.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
I don't think a motorcycle instructor is better than me for simple things.
WRONG
FFS.
But look at the bright side: DFC's noob will be the only one in her
class who will be able to swerve and brake simutaneously, and thus
will be able to teach the riding coaches something!
Not only that, she can back it up with the theory of Brakium and Swervium!

DFC
Bob Myers
2011-03-22 17:45:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@erols.com
But look at the bright side: DFC's noob will be the only one in her
class who will be able to swerve and brake simutaneously, and thus
will be able to teach the riding coaches something!
Isn't there some sort of requirement that in each BRC class, there has to be
at least one student who can teach the others new and interesting ways to
crash?

Looks like that will be met in this case...

Bob M.
Datesfat Chicks
2011-03-24 20:52:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Myers
Post by ***@erols.com
But look at the bright side: DFC's noob will be the only one in her
class who will be able to swerve and brake simutaneously, and thus
will be able to teach the riding coaches something!
Isn't there some sort of requirement that in each BRC class, there has to be
at least one student who can teach the others new and interesting ways to
crash?
Looks like that will be met in this case...
Probably not.

Braking and swerving at the same time isn't enough to really be "new and
interesting".

One of the better ones occurred when I took the BRC. I heard a noise and
turned my head. I saw bike handlebars sticking out of the grass. I left
the cattle pack and zoomed over there (which attracted the instructor's
attention, obviously). I was the second person on the scene.

A gal had left the course and smacked into a telephone pole. Her full-face
helmet actually made frontal contact with the pole. That was the only time
I've heard of where a full-face helped avoid injury in a BRC.

Anyway, she was then crying and went home. Her boyfriend, who was also in
the class, went home with her.

I don't know exactly how she did it.

DFC
tomorrow@erols.com
2011-03-24 20:56:31 UTC
Permalink
A gal had left the course and smacked into a telephone pole.  Her full-face
helmet actually made frontal contact with the pole.  That was the only time
I've heard of where a full-face helped avoid injury in a BRC.
There't that lack of experience rearing its ugly head again....
MikeWhy
2011-03-24 22:34:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
A gal had left the course and smacked into a telephone pole.
...
Post by Datesfat Chicks
I don't know exactly how she did it.
I have to say, this alone is reason enough to not do what you're thinking.
Conscious eye habits are even more important than belief in countersteering
for directional control.

Twibil
2011-03-16 17:01:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
But for other skills, you don't need to be a great teacher.
The name for this is "self-deception".
Calgary (Don)
2011-03-17 00:39:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
But for other skills, you don't need to be a great teacher.
Teaching someone how to do basic exercises on a bike ... I'm just not
seeing what could go wrong beyond the expected dropping the bike once or
maybe twice.
Not all that long ago one of Reeky's finest decided to learn to ride. I
am pretty sure she took the MSF course and certainly received advice
from well meaning friends who knew how to ride. If memory serves she
bought a Honda Shadow. I could be wrong on that but it was a mid weight
cruiser. To get used to the bike she tried to ride it around an empty
parking lot before she took it out on the road. Well she dropped it and
broke her ankle on the process. The bike never left the dealership until
she healed.

You speak of dropping the bike like there are no consequences other than
breaking a signal light or two. Well as with your concept of your rider
training skills, you are wrong. Bones break, abraded skin bleeds and you
should leave the training to a professional. Try getting into this
chick's pants some other way.
--
Disclaimer
Do not believe a thing I have said, unless you already know it to be
true, or can independently verify it from another source.

Reeky Ride To The Rockies
http://actualriders.ca/reekyrockies.htm
Road Glidin' Don
2011-03-17 03:24:22 UTC
Permalink
Try getting into this chick's pants some other way.
Yep. Time to change the thread's subject to what this is about...

So, what say ye?

An invitation to dinner at a nice restaurant?

Propose she join him for beer at the corner pub, Friday?

Ask if she'd like to come to his apartment and see his axle
collection?
Futility Man
2011-03-17 12:27:13 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:24:22 -0700 (PDT), "Road Glidin' Don"
Post by Road Glidin' Don
Ask if she'd like to come to his apartment and see his axle
collection?
Show her how to insert the filler in her grease gun.
--
Futility Man
Doug Payne
2011-03-17 14:46:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Road Glidin' Don
Ask if she'd like to come to his apartment and see his axle
collection?
That won't work. Remember the grease gun?
Calgary (Don)
2011-03-19 18:17:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Road Glidin' Don
Ask if she'd like to come to his apartment and see his axle
collection?
I'd think it would be a pretty safe bet she has never heard that line
before.
--
Disclaimer
Do not believe a thing I have said, unless you already know it to be
true, or can independently verify it from another source.

Reeky Ride To The Rockies
http://actualriders.ca/reekyrockies.htm
tomorrow@erols.com
2011-03-20 22:13:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Calgary (Don)
Post by Road Glidin' Don
Ask if she'd like to come to his apartment and see his axle
collection?
I'd think it would be a pretty safe bet she has never heard that line
before.
She'd probably be pretty damn disappointed when he didn't play any
Guns-n-Roses music, either!
Twibil
2011-03-20 22:50:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@erols.com
Post by Calgary (Don)
Post by Road Glidin' Don
Ask if she'd like to come to his apartment and see his axle
collection?
I'd think it would be a pretty safe bet she has never heard that line
before.
She'd probably be pretty damn disappointed when he didn't play any
Guns-n-Roses music, either!
Guns-'n-Roses play music!?

I learn something every day!
Road Glidin' Don
2011-03-20 23:56:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Twibil
Post by ***@erols.com
Post by Calgary (Don)
Post by Road Glidin' Don
Ask if she'd like to come to his apartment and see his axle
collection?
I'd think it would be a pretty safe bet she has never heard that line
before.
She'd probably be pretty damn disappointed when he didn't play any
Guns-n-Roses music, either!
Guns-'n-Roses play music!?
I learn something every day!
Welcome to the jungle, baby!
Beauregard T. Shagnasty
2011-03-16 14:50:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
The fundamental question (which hasn't really been addressed with any
credibility) is whether I'm competent to teach someone what all the controls
on the motorcycle are, how to raise and lower the kickstand,
Up to here, you might get by and do okay .. except for the fact that the
MSF training bikes may be dis-similarly configured to your Shadow so she
would have to unlearn what you taught, and relearn those piddlers they
use in the course.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
and how to start, stop, turn, etc.
Here, you lose.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
I believe the answer is absolutely "yes".
Seeing all the replies, you seem to stand alone in that belief.
Post by Datesfat Chicks
However, I think the argument of how skilled the instructor is would
come into play if I were teaching racing technique, wheelies and
stoppies, etc.
Only the most skilled of very advanced trainers/teachers should tackle
those maneuvers. Or young immortal squids.

Got time for an anecdote? Decades ago (late 60s) my future wife decided
she wanted to learn how to ride. We started in her driveway with my 350
on the centerstand. Learn all the controls. Repeat. Finally start
engine. Shift into 1st. Slowly advance throttle while easing out clutch.
Watch rear wheel spin. Apply brakes gently while reducing throttle and
disengaging clutch. Mass repetitions. Finally, ready to put both wheels
on the ground and ride to the end of the driveway, stop, put feet down.

Well, three-quarters of the way out the driveway, the *movement* caused
her to panic. She froze, forgot everything, then literally jumped off
and my motorcycle ended up on its side in the middle of the street. But
hey, you've dropped yours so often you probably won't care much.

Final point: she finally did learn to ride, taught by a trained MSF
instructor, and rode her R90S and R100S all around the US and even in
the Alps.
--
-bts
-Four wheels carry the body; two wheels move the soul
Bob Myers
2011-03-16 16:07:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
The fundamental question (which hasn't really been addressed with any
credibility) is whether I'm competent to teach someone what all the
controls on the motorcycle are, how to raise and lower the kickstand,
and how to start, stop, turn, etc. I believe the answer is absolutely
"yes".
I'm not sure why I'm trying to get through on this again, but what the
hell.....sigh...

Where the controls are, how to raise/lower the kickstand, etc., etc. -
right up to the "how to start" part....sure.
Why not? Knock yourself out, but let's face it - those things are
pretty self-evident after you've spent a few minutes with the bike,
hopefully with the owner's manual in your hand. They don't really NEED
to be "taught" by an "instructor."

But once again, what are you REALLY going to be able to teach in the
start/stop/turn/etc. departments that (a) is going to give your student
any real advantage in the MSF class (remember, she'll be riding a bike
there which will be completely different in its characteristics), (b) is
worth the risk to her, your bike, etc., and (c) is likely enough to not
have to be unlearned/relearned so as to be of any lasting benefit?

You've already heard from a very many people here - including among them
an extremely experienced MSF instructor - that the answer to the above
is "nothing at all, and please don't bother trying." Why are you
insisting that this is still something you should be doing?
Post by Datesfat Chicks
However, I think the argument of how skilled the instructor is would
come into play if I were teaching racing technique, wheelies and
stoppies, etc.
There's very, very little that is more important than instruction in the
very basics, and no time when it's more important to have an
experienced, trained instructor. It's not about the instructor's
skills/abilities in performing the task in question - it is about their
skills in passing that knowledge on to others, which is something
COMPLETELY different.

Bob M.
Doug Payne
2011-03-16 17:51:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
The fundamental question (which hasn't really been addressed with any
credibility) is whether I'm competent to teach someone what all the
controls on the motorcycle are, how to raise and lower the kickstand,
and how to start, stop, turn, etc. I believe the answer is absolutely
"yes".
However, I think the argument of how skilled the instructor is would
come into play if I were teaching racing technique, wheelies and
stoppies, etc.
Or maintaining your balance at a stop?
Road Glidin' Don
2011-03-16 18:40:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Payne
Post by Datesfat Chicks
The fundamental question (which hasn't really been addressed with any
credibility) is whether I'm competent to teach someone what all the
controls on the motorcycle are, how to raise and lower the kickstand,
and how to start, stop, turn, etc. I believe the answer is absolutely
"yes".
However, I think the argument of how skilled the instructor is would
come into play if I were teaching racing technique, wheelies and
stoppies, etc.
Or maintaining your balance at a stop?
LOL!
Tim
2011-03-15 16:59:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@Toil
<snip>
While applauding the general intention, I *really* don't think you've
got the know-how and experience to do this. BICBW.
Agree. Having taught about 4,500 to 5,000 students in the MSF
curriculum Basic Rider Course for the Virginia Rider Training Program
over some 14 years, I would never recommend that a current rider
"teach" a rank novice to ride, and certainly not just before the
novice is going to take the Basic Rider Course themselves, any way.
While it certainly might go well and be valuable, I believe the
downside risk far outweighs what I consider to be a very slight chance
that the experience will enhance the new rider's chances of doing well
in the BRC and becoming a better rider as a result.

Of course, people are free to do whatever they want. I wouldn't let
a friend or a family member serve in either role described. In fact,
my sister-in-law and my nephew are enrolled in the BRC later this
spring, and even though both of them already ride, I would not
recommend them seeking outside instruction prior to the class. Just
fertile ground for confusion, imo.
Post by ***@Toil
Secondly, I have a nasty feeling that a helmet/boots/gloves combo for
100 bucks signifies that the stuff is utter crap, no matter how many
fancy stickers it wears. I know stuff is cheaper in the US than here,
and I know that a lot of Chinese (for example) helmets have improved
beyond measure, but You Gets Wot You Paid For is still an immutable
law, IMHO.
Disagree. I have three HJC helmets that each cost less than $100
delivered to my door, and they are of extremely high quality; better,
in fact than any Shoei or Arai that I ever owned, although of course
the HJC models are 2010 models and my last Shoei was a 2004 model.
Still, I don't know of anyone who has ever had any problems with the
quality of any HJC D.O.T. approved helmet.

Can't speak to the gloves or boots, of course.
TOG@Toil
2011-03-15 17:32:28 UTC
Permalink
Disagree.   I have three HJC helmets that each cost less than $100
delivered to my door, and they are of extremely high quality; better,
in fact than any Shoei or Arai that I ever owned, although of course
the HJC models are 2010 models and my last Shoei was a 2004 model.
Still, I don't know of anyone who has ever had any problems with the
quality of any HJC D.O.T. approved helmet.
Can't speak to the gloves or boots, of course.
Interesting. I'd never heard of HJC. They are sold over here, too. I
did buy some Nitro Chinese helmets a couple of yewrs ago - they were
being unloaded cheap at an exhibition, and I bought three, for the
rest of the family. Fit and comfort were good. The ancillaries were
less impressive - trim came off, air vents broke, etc etc.

But they are getting better, definitely.

I've heard a complaint that the Chinese simply rip off Japanese
designs - the Js do all the R&D and then the Chinese copy them, which
is amusing in its way. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

I did buy some cheap Chinese boots a while back. The zips broke and
seams split in very short order. Perhaps they've got better. I've
never knowingly bought really cheap Chinese gloves, so can't comment.

There was a kerfuffle her, a few years ago, when a magazine cut open
some Kevlar reinforced gloves to find they contained no Kevlar
whatsoever..... I think those were made in Pakistan.
WaIIy
2011-03-15 17:10:45 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 10:53:35 -0400, "Datesfat Chicks"
Post by Datesfat Chicks
a)I got her into the MSF class. She does the classroom portion this
Saturday. The range time will be in about a month.
b)I got her boots, a helmet, and gloves. (As an aside, I got the full-face
helmet, visor, and gloves yesterday for about $100. I was surprised at what
you can get from HJC for about $60. Not world-class stuff, but DOT approved
and good for the price. I paid about $350 for my helmet and the visors are
$60. It is cool that you can get a $70 hemet with $25 visors.)
c)I verifed that my motorcycle jackets will fit her so she can borrow one if
helpful.
d)I'll go with her out to the local aiport with my Honda Shadow 600 and
teach her how to brake, accelerate, shift, turn, swerve, brake and
downshift, manuever at low speed, etc. (The MSF instructor will of course
have to correct any bad habits I teach her. But my feeling is better to get
her familiar with basic operation and so on.)
Any other advice?
Thanks, DFC
You seem to be taking prudent steps, except one.

I hope you don't mind seeing your bike dropped.
When she stops and gets off-balance, there's no turning back.

That's pretty big to start out on, especially if it's a girl, unless
she's tall and strong.
Datesfat Chicks
2011-03-15 17:32:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by WaIIy
You seem to be taking prudent steps, except one.
I hope you don't mind seeing your bike dropped.
When she stops and gets off-balance, there's no turning back.
That's pretty big to start out on, especially if it's a girl, unless
she's tall and strong.
I'm counting on it, actually. I don't care.

My poor motorcycle has been on its side maybe half a dozen times since I got
it. The upside of that is I have a couple extra pegs, and I also know that
the passenger pegs will fit up front (don't ask me how I know that).

All of the dialog in this thread has been very useful.

I understand the "big bike" argument.

I understand the point of view of the individual who said that someone who
is not an instructor should never teach. Logically, I think this point of
view is correct.

However, I earned a pilot's license as well (where the instructors
themselves HAVE TO be licensed), but in spite of that when I've gone up with
colleagues, I've allowed them to taxi (can you say zig-zag?) and taught them
to do basic things like climb and descend and turn (because it has made them
happy to steer the plane around -- this is a thrill for anyone who hasn't
done it). Of course, as we get closer to the ground, I do don't do that any
more ... but it is more from a safety perspective than from an instructional
perspective. I _could_ teach someone to land, but it is unsafe for me to do
that (because I don't have the training or experience to know how to let
someone make mistakes within limits). So I've never done that and never
will. But steering the plane around at altitude -- I believe this is
commonly done and not a risk.

Same for motorcycling ... there are some skills that I'd prefer an
instructor teach ... but for basic stuff like starting and stopping ... I'm
qualified enough. I just don't see the harm.

Anyway, it will be interesting.

DFC
WaIIy
2011-03-15 18:43:58 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 13:32:01 -0400, "Datesfat Chicks"
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by WaIIy
You seem to be taking prudent steps, except one.
I hope you don't mind seeing your bike dropped.
When she stops and gets off-balance, there's no turning back.
That's pretty big to start out on, especially if it's a girl, unless
she's tall and strong.
I'm counting on it, actually. I don't care.
My poor motorcycle has been on its side maybe half a dozen times since I got
it. The upside of that is I have a couple extra pegs, and I also know that
the passenger pegs will fit up front (don't ask me how I know that).
All of the dialog in this thread has been very useful.
I understand the "big bike" argument.
I understand the point of view of the individual who said that someone who
is not an instructor should never teach. Logically, I think this point of
view is correct.
However, I earned a pilot's license as well (where the instructors
themselves HAVE TO be licensed), but in spite of that when I've gone up with
colleagues, I've allowed them to taxi (can you say zig-zag?) and taught them
to do basic things like climb and descend and turn (because it has made them
happy to steer the plane around -- this is a thrill for anyone who hasn't
done it). Of course, as we get closer to the ground, I do don't do that any
more ... but it is more from a safety perspective than from an instructional
perspective. I _could_ teach someone to land, but it is unsafe for me to do
that (because I don't have the training or experience to know how to let
someone make mistakes within limits). So I've never done that and never
will. But steering the plane around at altitude -- I believe this is
commonly done and not a risk.
Same for motorcycling ... there are some skills that I'd prefer an
instructor teach ... but for basic stuff like starting and stopping ... I'm
qualified enough. I just don't see the harm.
Anyway, it will be interesting.
DFC
I "taught" my son to ride. He is 6' and 220 lbs. I went over the
basics of my R90 and told him to hop on.

He got on the street, almost swerved into a telephone pole, but
didn't fall off.

He's a very good rider today.

I'm likely the worst instructor ever, although at least I had him wear
my Shoei full face.
Tim
2011-03-15 18:54:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by WaIIy
You seem to be taking prudent steps, except one.
I hope you don't mind seeing your bike dropped.
When she stops and gets off-balance, there's no turning back.
That's pretty big to start out on, especially if it's a girl, unless
she's tall and strong.
I'm counting on it, actually.  I don't care.
Same for motorcycling ... there are some skills that I'd prefer an
instructor teach ... but for basic stuff like starting and stopping ... I'm
qualified enough.  I just don't see the harm.
The potential for harm comes at least partially from the attitude that
you don't care that your bike is dropped. No, not due to any
possible harm to the bike, but due to the possible ill effects on the
new rider's confidence, learning curve, anticipation and expectation
of the class, the differences between the Sadow 600 and the class
bikes.

It's hard to see the potential harm if you don't have any
experience. That doesn't mean there isn't any potential harm.

Doesn't mean that it *will* harm the potential student, either. Just
that it might.

Again, not saying don't do it. Just saying from my pov, there is
little to be gained vs. potentially significant downside.
The Older Gentleman
2011-03-15 19:07:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
My poor motorcycle has been on its side maybe half a dozen times since I got
it.
I'm trying to reconcile this with your assertion that you're experienced
enough to teach. ;-)
--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F Triumph Street Triple
Suzuki TS250ERx2 GN250. Only seven bikes now.
Try Googling before asking a damn silly question.
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
Datesfat Chicks
2011-03-15 19:46:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Older Gentleman
Post by Datesfat Chicks
My poor motorcycle has been on its side maybe half a dozen times since I got
it.
I'm trying to reconcile this with your assertion that you're experienced
enough to teach. ;-)
I haven't dropped it in a couple of years. : )

First time was at the airport and I was stopped then went over. I remember
being on the ground with the rear wheel still spinning ... it took me a few
seconds to find the engine cutoff and be sure the engine was no longer
operating before I got myself out from under it.

Second one was about identical to the first.

Then I low-sided it in the rain and sheared off the left peg. That hurt
physically.

I also lost it in a parking lot once, wet fresh asphalt. That also stung
physically. Let's see when that was:

http://www.dtashley.com/photos/2007/pics20071123/index2.php

The date was apparently near 11/13/07, so I think I've been upright for 3
years now.

Please remember, you've enjoyed my presence on this newsgroup for something
like four years.

So yeah, I think I've been upright for 3+ years.

That isn't counting the ST1300 I rented in Florida where I went over three
times in two days while at stops. Embarrassing.

But on my own bike I've been upright for 3+ years I think.

DFC
The Older Gentleman
2011-03-15 21:50:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by The Older Gentleman
I'm trying to reconcile this with your assertion that you're experienced
enough to teach. ;-)
I haven't dropped it in a couple of years. : )
First time was at the airport and I was stopped then went over. I remember
being on the ground with the rear wheel still spinning ... it took me a few
seconds to find the engine cutoff and be sure the engine was no longer
operating before I got myself out from under it.
Second one was about identical to the first.
Then I low-sided it in the rain and sheared off the left peg. That hurt
physically.
I also lost it in a parking lot once, wet fresh asphalt. That also stung
http://www.dtashley.com/photos/2007/pics20071123/index2.php
The date was apparently near 11/13/07, so I think I've been upright for 3
years now.
Please remember, you've enjoyed my presence on this newsgroup for something
like four years.
So yeah, I think I've been upright for 3+ years.
That isn't counting the ST1300 I rented in Florida where I went over three
times in two days while at stops. Embarrassing.
But on my own bike I've been upright for 3+ years I think.
Jesus H Christ.

On this, your own admission, you've dropped or crashed bikes *seven*
times in the last few years.

And you think you're experienced and competent?

I've got news for you, sunshine. You're not. You may be fine in an
aeroplane, because if you'd crashed it six times and lived to make a
posting like this, it'd be a miracle worth communicating to the Vatican,
but you're an absolutely shit rider.

From the above, you are just coming out of the "I've passed my test and
I'm immortal" phase.

OK, let's try and remember. In my first half-dozen years of riding I
crashed or fell off....

Three times on the YB100. Once on the CB175. Once on the MZ. Once on the
XS650 (at walking pace). Once on the CB750, and that was off the road.

So your newbie record is pretty close to my own.

Since then, and the latest one in that list was 1982, um, not counting
racetrack drops, nothing until about 2006 when I locked up the front end
of my Trophy in freezing wet weather winter conditions at about 15mph.
--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F Triumph Street Triple
Suzuki TS250ERx2 GN250. Only seven bikes now.
Try Googling before asking a damn silly question.
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
Road Glidin' Don
2011-03-16 16:01:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Older Gentleman
Post by The Older Gentleman
I'm trying to reconcile this with your assertion that you're experienced
enough to teach. ;-)
I haven't dropped it in a couple of years.  : )
First time was at the airport and I was stopped then went over.  I remember
being on the ground with the rear wheel still spinning ... it took me a few
seconds to find the engine cutoff and be sure the engine was no longer
operating before I got myself out from under it.
Second one was about identical to the first.
Then I low-sided it in the rain and sheared off the left peg.  That hurt
physically.
I also lost it in a parking lot once, wet fresh asphalt.  That also stung
http://www.dtashley.com/photos/2007/pics20071123/index2.php
The date was apparently near 11/13/07, so I think I've been upright for 3
years now.
Please remember, you've enjoyed my presence on this newsgroup for something
like four years.
So yeah, I think I've been upright for 3+ years.
That isn't counting the ST1300 I rented in Florida where I went over three
times in two days while at stops.  Embarrassing.
But on my own bike I've been upright for 3+ years I think.
Jesus H Christ.
On this, your own admission, you've dropped or crashed bikes *seven*
times in the last few years.
And you think you're experienced and competent?
I've got news for you, sunshine. You're not. You may be fine in an
aeroplane, because if you'd crashed it six times and lived to make a
posting like this, it'd be a miracle worth communicating to the Vatican,
but you're an absolutely shit rider.
It should also be kept in mind that (unless I'm mistaken) DFC is the
same guy who used to post as "David Aspen" (or something like that),
who crashed at least twice in short order on previous bikes.

He's the worst guy to teach *anyone* about *anythin*g regarding bikes,
in my opinion. He's the type that will have the student focusing on
irrelevant matters (like what condition her axle is in) and completely
overlooking the most obvious and critical things.
WaIIy
2011-03-15 22:09:28 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 15:46:44 -0400, "Datesfat Chicks"
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Then I low-sided it in the rain and sheared off the left peg. That hurt
physically.
Now we know how you figured out the rear peg will fit on the front.

If you can only find a one-legged girlfriend.
Mark Olson
2011-03-15 22:54:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by WaIIy
On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 15:46:44 -0400, "Datesfat Chicks"
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Then I low-sided it in the rain and sheared off the left peg. That hurt
physically.
Now we know how you figured out the rear peg will fit on the front.
If you can only find a one-legged girlfriend.
Maybe that's his cunning plan...
tomorrow@erols.com
2011-03-15 23:03:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Olson
Post by WaIIy
On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 15:46:44 -0400, "Datesfat Chicks"
Then I low-sided it in the rain and sheared off the left peg.  That hurt
physically.
Now we know how you figured out the rear peg will fit on the front.
If you can only find a one-legged girlfriend.
Maybe that's his cunning plan...
Well, he strikes me as quite the linguist.....
WaIIy
2011-03-16 01:23:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@erols.com
Post by Mark Olson
Post by WaIIy
On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 15:46:44 -0400, "Datesfat Chicks"
Then I low-sided it in the rain and sheared off the left peg.  That hurt
physically.
Now we know how you figured out the rear peg will fit on the front.
If you can only find a one-legged girlfriend.
Maybe that's his cunning plan...
Well, he strikes me as quite the linguist.....
That took me a few seconds, but I must say - most excellent.
Datesfat Chicks
2011-03-16 09:51:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by WaIIy
Post by ***@erols.com
Post by Mark Olson
Post by WaIIy
On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 15:46:44 -0400, "Datesfat Chicks"
Then I low-sided it in the rain and sheared off the left peg. That
hurt
physically.
Now we know how you figured out the rear peg will fit on the front.
If you can only find a one-legged girlfriend.
Maybe that's his cunning plan...
Well, he strikes me as quite the linguist.....
That took me a few seconds, but I must say - most excellent.
Yep, ten points on that one.

I didn't get it until you indicated you got it. Then I had to read it again
to figure out what you got.

This is the kind of thing that writers struggle to sneak past the censors on
TV shows, and are delighted when they do.

It is is also my kind of joke. I hate the cerebral stuff. But this humor
is right down on the carpet -- the kind of humor I like.

DFC.
I Can See Clearly Now!
2011-03-16 13:05:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@erols.com
Post by Mark Olson
Maybe that's his cunning plan...
Well, he strikes me as quite the linguist.....
It is is also my kind of joke.  I hate the cerebral stuff.  But this humor
is right down on the carpet
So, have you ever chewed the carpet before?
Datesfat Chicks
2011-03-16 13:52:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@erols.com
Post by Mark Olson
Maybe that's his cunning plan...
Well, he strikes me as quite the linguist.....
It is is also my kind of joke. I hate the cerebral stuff. But this humor
is right down on the carpet
So, have you ever chewed the carpet before?
I don't know. Have you ever tossed a salad before?

DFC

P.S.--


I Can See Clearly Now!
2011-03-16 20:59:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Datesfat Chicks
Post by I Can See Clearly Now!
So, have you ever chewed the carpet before?
I don't know. Have you ever tossed a salad before?
Of course. Hasn't everybody made a green salad before?
Post by Datesfat Chicks
http://youtu.be/077UtUWGQOA
I never open links to youtube.com.
Road Glidin' Don
2011-03-16 13:16:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by WaIIy
You seem to be taking prudent steps, except one.
I hope you don't mind seeing your bike dropped.
When she stops and gets off-balance, there's no turning back.
That's pretty big to start out on, especially if it's a girl, unless
she's tall and strong.
I'm counting on it, actually.  I don't care.
My poor motorcycle has been on its side maybe half a dozen times since I got
it.
As I was saying...
 
Rob Kleinschmidt
2011-03-15 19:04:24 UTC
Permalink
a)I got her into the MSF class.  She does the classroom portion this
Saturday.  The range time will be in about a month.
b)I got her boots, a helmet, and gloves.  (As an aside, I got the full-face
helmet, visor, and gloves yesterday for about $100.  I was surprised at what
you can get from HJC for about $60.  Not world-class stuff, but DOT approved
and good for the price.  I paid about $350 for my helmet and the visors are
$60.  It is cool that you can get a $70 hemet with $25 visors.)
c)I verifed that my motorcycle jackets will fit her so she can borrow one if
helpful.
d)I'll go with her out to the local aiport with my Honda Shadow 600 and
teach her how to brake, accelerate, shift, turn, swerve, brake and
downshift, manuever at low speed, etc.  (The MSF instructor will of course
have to correct any bad habits I teach her.  But my feeling is better to get
her familiar with basic operation and so on.)
Any other advice?
Before you go anywhere to actually operate the bike,
do a quick session in the driveway to locate the controls
and try sitting on the bike to see if she's comfortable
with its weight, seat height and balance.

Some kind of knee protection might also be good.

When teaching my son, I'd initially put an improvised
limiter on the throttle to prevent him accidentally hitting
full throttle in a panic situation. He was perhaps 10 at
the time and the DR125 that he was learning on was
slightly big for him. Probably less necessary for an
adult.
Road Glidin' Don
2011-03-16 13:21:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob Kleinschmidt
Some kind of knee protection might also be good.
Another part of his cunning plan?
Beauregard T. Shagnasty
2011-03-18 21:36:58 UTC
Permalink
Hey Datesfat, where were you when you were *really* needed?

http://preview.tinyurl.com/4oy4wbx

"crashed his motorcycle ... on the day he received a motorcycle permit"
--
-bts
-Four wheels carry the body; two wheels move the soul
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...