Discussion:
OT: This is wrong on so many levels...
(too old to reply)
B. Peg
2008-05-15 01:24:47 UTC
Permalink
Found at thenewspaper.com:

Quote:
Police raid Riverside, California parking lot to issue modified car
tickets at local car enthusiast gathering.

Parking lot raid using $503,000 in federal and state gas tax revenue
to pay for overtime, nine police agencies in Riverside, California sent more
than one hundred police officers to surround a gathering of automotive
enthusiasts. Owners of imported sport compact cars had gathered at the
Canyon Crossing shopping center on Friday night to swap stories, talk about
their passion for cars and show off the latest enhancements to their rides.
At around 11pm police surprised participants by blocking all exits with
fifty police cruisers. Officers then began a warrantless search and
interrogation operation of the 150 vehicles that were present.

"If you're not into street racing, why would you need that?" Riverside
Police Traffic Sergeant Skip Showalter asked an enthusiast during a similar
crackdown last year. "Why would you want more power going to your car?"

Police issued a total of forty-eight tickets for "engine
modifications" with police accusing the owners of the parked vehicles of
being street racers. Another fifty tickets were issued for paperwork
violations, dark window tinting and lack of a front license plate. The most
revenue, however, will be generated from the fees imposed on twenty vehicles
that were confiscated. Despite labeling the parking lot raid as taking place
at a "street racing venue," Riverside Police offered no evidence that any
street racing actually took place.

Across the state, gas tax funds are regularly used to fund similar
crackdowns that generate big revenue. In 2004, the California Highway Patrol
issued a total of 101,553 "modified car" citations worth $10.5 million
according to CHP data obtained by TheNewspaper.

Other law enforcement agencies participating in Friday night's raid
included the California Highway Patrol, Riverside County Sheriff's
Department, and police from Baldwin Park, Fontana, Irwindale, Moreno Valley,
Ontario and Mount San Jacinto Community College.

**********

So 100 cops get to split $503,000.00. No wonder California is broke.

B~
S'mee
2008-05-15 02:24:31 UTC
Permalink
On May 14, 7:24 pm, "B. Peg" <***@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
SNIP
      So 100 cops get to split $503,000.00.  No wonder California is broke.
So what? Just a bunch of dumb ass cagers? Why should I care? WHY
should I care that California is taped, penniless, BROKE like a banna
republic?

Who knows? Who cares? Why bother...it's mostly scummy cagers anyway.
--
Keith S
Sean_Q_
2008-05-15 02:45:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by S'mee
Who knows? Who cares? Why bother...
It could be a bike rally next time.

SQ
B. Peg
2008-05-15 13:24:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sean_Q_
Post by S'mee
Who knows? Who cares? Why bother...
It could be a bike rally next time.
Actually, we did have the local police pull that about a year ago on a
Harley group that met weekly at a Chuy's rib place. They surrounded the
place and went after non-approved DOT helmets, pipes, etc. They don't meet
there anymore.

Then there was that helicopter and police thing at some Carolina BMW rally a
few years ago. Must'a been another overtime thing. Those BMW and Goldwing
riders are a surly gang. Damn noisemakers!

Wonder if they'll go after the Italian sports car clubs like Ferrari,
Buggetti Veyron, and Lambourgini next? Afterall, they "might go fast"
sometime or could even, God forbid, engage in racing. I doubt they'll
bother them though as they are the only ones who could afford legal
expertise to make it a money losing offense for the cops.

B~
S'mee
2008-05-15 23:11:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sean_Q_
Post by S'mee
Who knows? Who cares? Why bother...
It could be a bike rally next time.
SQ
So? I am 100% legal as far as the cops can tell. If somebody is stump
stupid enough to put unapproved things like pipes on their
motorcycle...it ain't my problem.

I know a source of D.O.T. "approved" tuned pipes but I ain't talking.
It's a grandfather thing.
--
Keith S
Vito
2008-05-16 02:00:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sean_Q_
It could be a bike rally next time.
It was in N.C.! Some years back BMW (yes BMW) had a big rally there to
celebrate opening a headquarters there. The state Chamber of Commerce had
busted a nut to get them there. Then the local Sheriff busted the party and
locked up a bunch of suits. I heard he committed suicide later. Y'all
Californians could learn from N.C.s example.
Timberwoof
2008-05-15 04:13:53 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by S'mee
SNIP
      So 100 cops get to split $503,000.00.  No wonder California is broke.
So what? Just a bunch of dumb ass cagers? Why should I care? WHY
should I care that California is taped, penniless, BROKE like a banna
republic?
Who knows? Who cares? Why bother...it's mostly scummy cagers anyway.
Hey, can we secede?
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com>
faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml
Ten Steps to Fascism: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html
P. Roehling
2008-05-15 05:45:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timberwoof
Hey, can we secede?
As a Texan, I can answer that question definitively: NO. We tried it once,
and the entire Union Army came calling shortly thereafter.

And *THAT* was clear back before they knew we were sitting on a great big
pool of oil!
Who Me?
2008-05-15 14:18:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by P. Roehling
Post by Timberwoof
Hey, can we secede?
As a Texan, I can answer that question definitively: NO.
Seven Flags ?? ;-)
Sean_Q_
2008-05-15 17:33:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by P. Roehling
Post by Timberwoof
Hey, can we secede?
As a Texan, I can answer that question definitively: NO. We tried it once,
and the entire Union Army came calling shortly thereafter.
Only a slight exaggeration, although one of the last battles,
Palmito Ranch, was fought in Texas on May 12, over a month after
Appomattox. However, the last Confederate flag to be lowered
by a Rebel combat unit was in August -- on the commerce raider
CSS _Shenandoah_ in the north Pacific.

BTW some 2,000 Texans joined the Union Army.

SQ
P. Roehling
2008-05-15 18:37:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sean_Q_
BTW some 2,000 Texans joined the Union Army.
Happened all over the South.

It must have been a bitch trying to sort your loyalties out in some sort of
rational order, and I'm glad I never had to make that choice.
Handover Phist
2008-05-15 02:54:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. Peg
So 100 cops get to split $503,000.00. No wonder California is broke.
California is so broke it's looking for any source of revenue. Even
sources that will obviously cause big public outcries.
--
Darth Vader! Only you would be so bold!
-- Princess Leia Organa

www.websterscafe.com
timeOday
2008-05-15 13:43:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Handover Phist
Post by B. Peg
So 100 cops get to split $503,000.00. No wonder California is broke.
California is so broke it's looking for any source of revenue. Even
sources that will obviously cause big public outcries.
But if it really cost them a half mil to launch this operation, did it
even generate net revenue?
Ben Kaufman
2008-05-15 03:37:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. Peg
Police raid Riverside, California parking lot to issue modified car
tickets at local car enthusiast gathering.
Parking lot raid using $503,000 in federal and state gas tax revenue
to pay for overtime, nine police agencies in Riverside, California sent more
than one hundred police officers to surround a gathering of automotive
enthusiasts.
Unless you read a different article at the website, this is not a quote. Your
version makes it sound like this raid costed $503,000. In fact, this money was
for the entire year to go after street racing.

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/23/2302.asp
Post by B. Peg
Owners of imported sport compact cars had gathered at the
Canyon Crossing shopping center on Friday night to swap stories, talk about
their passion for cars and show off the latest enhancements to their rides.
At around 11pm police surprised participants by blocking all exits with
fifty police cruisers. Officers then began a warrantless search and
interrogation operation of the 150 vehicles that were present.
"If you're not into street racing, why would you need that?" Riverside
Police Traffic Sergeant Skip Showalter asked an enthusiast during a similar
crackdown last year. "Why would you want more power going to your car?"
Notice that the article cites an event that did not take place at this raid.
Post by B. Peg
Police issued a total of forty-eight tickets for "engine
modifications" with police accusing the owners of the parked vehicles of
being street racers. Another fifty tickets were issued for paperwork
violations, dark window tinting and lack of a front license plate. The most
revenue, however, will be generated from the fees imposed on twenty vehicles
that were confiscated. Despite labeling the parking lot raid as taking place
at a "street racing venue," Riverside Police offered no evidence that any
street racing actually took place.
Notice the article does not say that anyone was ticketed for street racing.
Post by B. Peg
Across the state, gas tax funds are regularly used to fund similar
crackdowns that generate big revenue. In 2004, the California Highway Patrol
issued a total of 101,553 "modified car" citations worth $10.5 million
according to CHP data obtained by TheNewspaper.
If it stops street racing then it makes the roads safer for everyone, especially
we of the cageless variety.
Post by B. Peg
Other law enforcement agencies participating in Friday night's raid
included the California Highway Patrol, Riverside County Sheriff's
Department, and police from Baldwin Park, Fontana, Irwindale, Moreno Valley,
Ontario and Mount San Jacinto Community College.
**********
So 100 cops get to split $503,000.00. No wonder California is broke.
B~
Also notice that there is no "journalist" attributed to this article or the
names of anyone providing information.

Ben
David T. Ashley
2008-05-15 04:22:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. Peg
So 100 cops get to split $503,000.00. No wonder California is broke.
B~
Why are you saying this is wrong?

If certain engine modifications are illegal and those modifications were
performed ...

Would you be as upset if the police raided a gun show and cracked down on
selling guns without permits and illegal modifications to firearms?
St. John Smythe
2008-05-15 11:09:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by David T. Ashley
Would you be as upset if the police raided a gun show and cracked down
on selling guns without permits and illegal modifications to firearms?
I sure would, because that's a BATF responsibility, and outside of the
purview of local or state law enforcement.
--
sjs
Furrfu!
S'mee
2008-05-15 23:14:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by St. John Smythe
Post by David T. Ashley
Would you be as upset if the police raided a gun show and cracked down
on selling guns without permits and illegal modifications to firearms?
I sure would, because that's a BATF responsibility, and outside of the
purview of local or state law enforcement.
Not only THAT but if it is a private sale they aren't restricted on
whom they sell to. But I could be wrong...IANAL after all.
--
Keith S
Who Me?
2008-05-15 14:13:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by David T. Ashley
Would you be as upset if the police raided a gun show and cracked down on
selling guns without permits and illegal modifications to firearms?
Oh shit. Here we go.

David: You REALLY need to learn when to STFU!
David T. Ashley
2008-05-15 16:22:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Who Me?
Post by David T. Ashley
Would you be as upset if the police raided a gun show and cracked down on
selling guns without permits and illegal modifications to firearms?
Oh shit. Here we go.
David: You REALLY need to learn when to STFU!
Why? The issues are exactly the same. Minus issues of probable cause,
certain modifications to vehicles are illegal. If people don't approve, get
the law changed. Don't blame the cops for seeing certain get-togethers as a
revenue opportunity.
Turby
2008-05-15 17:12:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by David T. Ashley
Post by Who Me?
Post by David T. Ashley
Would you be as upset if the police raided a gun show and cracked down on
selling guns without permits and illegal modifications to firearms?
Oh shit. Here we go.
David: You REALLY need to learn when to STFU!
Why?
G*ns, David. We _could_ talk about your religion, if you like. Or
politics. But not g*ns.
Post by David T. Ashley
The issues are exactly the same.
Whoosh. It's more like mentioning 9/11 to a certain person from Utica.
--
Turby the Turbosurfer
Kenneth P. Turvey
2008-05-15 18:39:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by David T. Ashley
Why? The issues are exactly the same. Minus issues of probable cause,
certain modifications to vehicles are illegal. If people don't approve,
get the law changed. Don't blame the cops for seeing certain
get-togethers as a revenue opportunity.
Actually it is totally different. There is no right to modify your car
to go 200 mph. Assuming that there weren't any 4th amendment violations
this shouldn't be a problem for anybody.

The gun example is way out though. It involves an entirely different set
of concerns.
--
Kenneth P. Turvey <kt-***@squeakydolphin.com>
Jeff Mayner
2008-05-15 19:31:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenneth P. Turvey
Post by David T. Ashley
Why? The issues are exactly the same. Minus issues of probable cause,
certain modifications to vehicles are illegal. If people don't approve,
get the law changed. Don't blame the cops for seeing certain
get-togethers as a revenue opportunity.
Actually it is totally different. There is no right to modify your car
to go 200 mph. Assuming that there weren't any 4th amendment violations
this shouldn't be a problem for anybody.
I guess they'll be going after Jay Leno anyday now?
Post by Kenneth P. Turvey
The gun example is way out though. It involves an entirely different set
of concerns.
--
Turby
2008-05-15 16:57:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Who Me?
Post by David T. Ashley
Would you be as upset if the police raided a gun show and cracked down on
selling guns without permits and illegal modifications to firearms?
Oh shit. Here we go.
David: You REALLY need to learn when to STFU!
You might call it the Reeky Corollary to Godwin's Law.
--
Turby the Turbosurfer
Kenneth P. Turvey
2008-05-15 18:37:35 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: Yes
Post by David T. Ashley
Would you be as upset if the police raided a gun show and cracked down
on selling guns without permits and illegal modifications to firearms?
Actually yes, since the federal government has no authority to regulate
these things.. but that's a topic for a different group.
Who Me?
2008-05-15 20:56:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenneth P. Turvey
Post by David T. Ashley
Would you be as upset if the police raided a gun show and cracked down
on selling guns without permits and illegal modifications to firearms?
Actually yes, since the federal government has no authority to regulate
these things.. but that's a topic for a different group.
David, YO David........Dave......Are you there?

See, this is what happens when you let the word g*ns creep into a post.

It's a key-word that brings the group monitors out of the wood work. Those
people are assigned to groups that they NEVER participate in on ANY other
subject, including the on-topic one. They are there to refute any HINT of
an opinion different than theirs.
Now do you understand ??

OK, so it's started, let's fan it a bit.

The Federal (and State for that matter) have every right, and a duty in
fact, to regulate the manufacture, sale, design and various other aspects of
g*ns because none of that has any bearing on the ability to keep and bear
them.

While there have been a few glitches along the way, no Federal or State
court has ever ruled to the contrary and had it stand for very long. It is
absolutely proper for the LEA's to enforce laws that are properly drawn and
tested in court. To suggest otherwise is tantamount to treason.

Stick that in your barrel and smoke it for a while.
Kenneth P. Turvey
2008-05-15 22:30:12 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: Yes
Post by Who Me?
The Federal (and State for that matter) have every right, and a duty in
fact, to regulate the manufacture, sale, design and various other
aspects of g*ns because none of that has any bearing on the ability to
keep and bear them.
Since this is an off topic thread.. I'll get involved. There are a few
issues involved here:

1) The fact that the enumerated powers of the federal government do not
include a power to regulate weapons.

2) The power of the states to regulate the militia, a power usurped by
the federal government when it regulates civilian ownership of arms in
violation of the 10th amendment.

3) The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be
"infringed". If you don't think these regulations infringe on your right
to bear arms, what exactly do you think they are doing? This right is
somewhat moderated by the states power to regulate the militia, but the
federal government doesn't have a leg to stand on here. It is certainly
outside its powers. The only possible justification is the commerce
clause, but then these laws shouldn't be enforced against people who buy
weapons purchased within their own state.

The supreme court disagrees with much of this, but that's my opinion. If
you listened to the arguments over the DC gun ban, you would probably see
that the real reason the supremes don't rule this way is because they are
ruling on the effect, not the law. Not even Scalia is comfortable with
overturning the law that essentially bans machine guns in the US, even
though this is clearly exactly the kind of weapon that the framers
intended to be protected by the 2nd. They protected civilian ownership
of the kinds of arms that would be useful in defending against foreign
armies or home grown tyrants, not civilian ownership of castrated tools
only useful for hunting.
Post by Who Me?
While there have been a few glitches along the way, no Federal or State
court has ever ruled to the contrary and had it stand for very long. It
is absolutely proper for the LEA's to enforce laws that are properly
drawn and tested in court. To suggest otherwise is tantamount to
treason.
OK, then I'm a traitor. When the government exceeds its authority it is
up to us to make sure it stops. The fact is that in this regard the
government has exceeded its authority. We probably won't pay for it, but
our grand kids or their kids are certain too.

Just because the government, including the court, asserts that it has a
power does not mean that you should blindly accept it as so.
Post by Who Me?
Stick that in your barrel and smoke it for a while.
I'm enjoying it, but it is a bit light. It lacks substance.

I'll let you have the last word and we can return this newsgroup to its
normal purpose..

Oh, by the way, nice to meet you. I just started reading this group
because I'm in the market for a sport touring bike. I'll probably be
buying one in the next month or so. I sold my last bike a few years
ago. I decided that they were just too dangerous to use for a parent of
two kids. I've re-evaluated that position a bit due to some changes in
my current situation, so I'm willing to join the fray again.

I don't know if I'll keep reading rec.motorcycles. I'm still evaluating
it.
--
Kenneth P. Turvey <kt-***@squeakydolphin.com>
Who Me?
2008-05-15 23:25:08 UTC
Permalink
David..........see what mentioning g*ns starts.
I am kinda sorry that I had to twist the tigers tail but it was just for
demonstration purposes.
Post by Kenneth P. Turvey
X-No-Archive: Yes
Since this is an off topic thread.. I'll get involved. There are a few
<major snippage>
Get involved my ass. You started the off topic bull shit.
Post by Kenneth P. Turvey
I don't know if I'll keep reading rec.motorcycles. I'm still evaluating
it.
If you can't resist the impulse to climb up on the stump and preach about
the holy G*n, then please take this as an invitation to take your leave.
And why is it that you don't want your words of wisdom archived?

The certified kook quotient (as opposed to the usual kooks) here has been
pretty low lately.
Hope this doesn't reverse the trend.
Kenneth P. Turvey
2008-05-16 00:46:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Who Me?
If you can't resist the impulse to climb up on the stump and preach
about the holy G*n, then please take this as an invitation to take your
leave. And why is it that you don't want your words of wisdom archived?
I think I might be in the job market in the near future and I thought it
might be best to keep my political views off of Google. It wasn't really
that important to me. It isn't like I hide them.

Your reaction was really, really childish.
Post by Who Me?
The certified kook quotient (as opposed to the usual kooks) here has
been pretty low lately.
Hope this doesn't reverse the trend.
I think if you google me, you'll find that I've posted to USENET for
many, many years, and although I may have opinions that you don't agree
with, I don't believe my history justifies this categorization.

Of course, you're free to disagree.
--
Kenneth P. Turvey <kt-***@squeakydolphin.com>
Who Me?
2008-05-16 00:58:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenneth P. Turvey
I think if you google me, you'll find that I've posted to USENET for
many, many years, and although I may have opinions that you don't agree
with, I don't believe my history justifies this categorization.
Of course, you're free to disagree.
It's not that I disagree, necessarily, it's just that the manner in which
you appeared and the format and tenor of your message has been seen over and
over and over.......including the no-archive.......and having a meek,
reasonable sounding explanation for every challenge.

If you are not marching to a canned script, you sure fooled me.

And never mind assuring me that you are not a plant.
A previous posting history would not preclude that.
I don't think I'm buying it at this point.
Too many coincidences.
And I really don't care.
Sean_Q_
2008-05-15 23:52:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenneth P. Turvey
I don't know if I'll keep reading rec.motorcycles. I'm still evaluating
it.
When you're done, please post the results of your evaluation here.
In detail. And don't be shy about naming names and kicking ass.
Be as blunt as possible. You can also be opinionated, reactionary,
biased, subjective, judgmental, moralistic, self-righteous, elitist,
discriminatory, contemptuous or inflammatory and you won't be
conspicuous in the least.

SQ
Kenneth P. Turvey
2008-05-16 00:50:39 UTC
Permalink
When you're done, please post the results of your evaluation here. In
detail. And don't be shy about naming names and kicking ass. Be as blunt
as possible. You can also be opinionated, reactionary, biased,
subjective, judgmental, moralistic, self-righteous, elitist,
discriminatory, contemptuous or inflammatory and you won't be
conspicuous in the least.
It wasn't meant to be an insulting reference to the group... just a
statement of fact. There are many groups to read and you have to decide
which ones have value to you. Now just because some group doesn't have
value to me that doesn't detract from its value to someone else.

I was really responding to the poster noting that I have only rarely
posted to this group, quite probably never in many years.
--
Kenneth P. Turvey <kt-***@squeakydolphin.com>
Rob Kleinschmidt
2008-05-16 02:27:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenneth P. Turvey
You can also be opinionated, reactionary, biased,
subjective, judgmental, moralistic, self-righteous, elitist,
discriminatory, contemptuous or inflammatory and you won't be
conspicuous in the least.
It wasn't meant to be an insulting reference to the group... just a
statement of fact.  There are many groups to read and you have to decide
which ones have value to you.  Now just because some group doesn't have
value to me that doesn't detract from its value to someone else.
You're frikking condescending to us, aren't you ?
c
2008-05-16 20:54:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenneth P. Turvey
X-No-Archive: Yes
Since this is an off topic thread.. I'll get involved. There are a few
1) The fact that the enumerated powers of the federal government do not
include a power to regulate weapons.
true, but lack of textual support has not invalidated too much of the
modern fed's regulation of rights; i agree with you only procedurally
that this is an issue

i don't imagine that's really relevant to anything in this thread,
feel free to differ
Post by Kenneth P. Turvey
2) The power of the states to regulate the militia, a power usurped by
the federal government when it regulates civilian ownership of arms in
violation of the 10th amendment.
how nice of you to rewrite the issues surrounding the second amendment
in your conclusory tone...
Post by Kenneth P. Turvey
3) The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be
"infringed". If you don't think these regulations infringe on your right
to bear arms, what exactly do you think they are doing? This right is
somewhat moderated by the states power to regulate the militia, but the
federal government doesn't have a leg to stand on here. It is certainly
outside its powers. The only possible justification is the commerce
clause, but then these laws shouldn't be enforced against people who buy
weapons purchased within their own state.
why did you depart from stating issues to declaring opinion?

also ... hi ... lopez ... the fed *can* poke within states based on
"substantial effect" under CC; be careful what you write off as
"shouldn't be [possible]"
Post by Kenneth P. Turvey
The supreme court disagrees with much of this, but that's my opinion. If
you listened to the arguments over the DC gun ban, you would probably see
that the real reason the supremes don't rule this way is because they are
ruling on the effect, not the law. Not even Scalia is comfortable with
overturning the law that essentially bans machine guns in the US, even
though this is clearly exactly the kind of weapon that the framers
intended to be protected by the 2nd. They protected civilian ownership
of the kinds of arms that would be useful in defending against foreign
armies or home grown tyrants, not civilian ownership of castrated tools
only useful for hunting.
we got abortion as a "right" (well, ultimately a "protected liberty
interest") based on the idea that the framers just couldn't picture
the world america would become

we have a lot more people shot up over drugs and poverty (and whatever
else causes people to blow each other away) than we have people
eliminating terrorists or keeping evil foreigner invasions at bay as
part of their routine with their milita ... where do you really think
the court will come out in heller?

thanks for soapboxing (and for writing off bikers, since it's so
impossible one might be an attorney or doctor or just so fucking good
with his hands that he has every right to be awarded a pretentious
latin title too) but you might want to watch what you say in case you
have to eat your words (regardless of your level of respect)
Post by Kenneth P. Turvey
Post by Who Me?
While there have been a few glitches along the way, no Federal or State
court has ever ruled to the contrary and had it stand for very long. It
is absolutely proper for the LEA's to enforce laws that are properly
drawn and tested in court. To suggest otherwise is tantamount to
treason.
OK, then I'm a traitor. When the government exceeds its authority it is
up to us to make sure it stops. The fact is that in this regard the
government has exceeded its authority. We probably won't pay for it, but
our grand kids or their kids are certain too.
yes, it's a fact - well spotted!

oh, wait ... no, that's your opinion

where did you decide precisely what authority the fed has? and why?
and how come you don't think you need to justify yourself?

if you want to make a war, at least go through the motions
Post by Kenneth P. Turvey
Just because the government, including the court, asserts that it has a
power does not mean that you should blindly accept it as so.
yes, absolutely; so dont be offended that we're not quite taking what
you say as gospel
P. Roehling
2008-05-15 06:06:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. Peg
Police raid Riverside, California parking lot to issue modified car
tickets at local car enthusiast gathering.
Despite the euphemism, these aren't just innocent "car enthusiasts"; they're
almost entirely street racers who regularly gather at these locations to
scout out the opposition, drink and smoke some shit, and then decide where
they're going to race later on that evening.

Street racers have been responsible for a number of deaths in southern
California recently, and as a result of the public's pressure the cops have
begun to come down on the guys with both feet. It hardly comes as a
surprise, and they should have been expecting it.
Sean_Q_
2008-05-15 12:08:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by P. Roehling
Despite the euphemism, these aren't just innocent "car enthusiasts"; they're
almost entirely street racers who regularly gather at these locations to
scout out the opposition, drink and smoke some shit, and then decide where
they're going to race later on that evening.
You're right; these obviously guilty malefactors should be inspected,
detected, rejected and persecuted to the Full Extent of the Law and
Beyond.

This applies to bikers as well; for instance the Buell sales brochure
says their streetfighter product line was designed "in the spirit
of pure hooliganism" and any person riding one is an obvious suspect.

SQ
t***@erols.com
2008-05-15 14:18:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sean_Q_
You're right; these obviously guilty malefactors should be inspected,
detected, rejected and persecuted to the Full Extent of the Law and
Beyond.
This applies to bikers as well; for instance the Buell sales brochure
says their streetfighter product line was designed "in the spirit
of pure hooliganism" and any person riding one is an obvious suspect.
My Monster S4Rs is responsible for any and all guilty thoughts I have
and any actions I may take in response to those thoughts while riding
it.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
P. Roehling
2008-05-15 18:54:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sean_Q_
Post by P. Roehling
Despite the euphemism, these aren't just innocent "car enthusiasts";
they're almost entirely street racers who regularly gather at these
locations to scout out the opposition, drink and smoke some shit, and
then decide where they're going to race later on that evening.
You're right; these obviously guilty malefactors should be inspected,
detected, rejected and persecuted to the Full Extent of the Law and
Beyond.
Shrug.

If the idiots weren't out blatantly breaking the laws in public -and
occasionally mowing down innocent nonparticipants into the bargain- odds are
the cops would pretty much ignore them.

They ignored us, and practically everybody I knew in high school -myself
included- participated in street racing. But we kept it pretty quiet and
made darned sure we held our races way out on some abandoned runway or other
location where there was no chance of (A) accidentally killing some innocent
passerby or (B) getting caught by the cops.

When you not only make your street racing into a well-attended regular
public function that everyone -cops included- knows about, and you hold your
races in urban settings with other traffic on the same streets, you're
simply asking to be busted, and shouldn't cry when it happens.
Kenneth P. Turvey
2008-05-15 19:04:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by P. Roehling
They ignored us, and practically everybody I knew in high school -myself
included- participated in street racing. But we kept it pretty quiet and
made darned sure we held our races way out on some abandoned runway or
other location where there was no chance of (A) accidentally killing
some innocent passerby or (B) getting caught by the cops.
Another data point... I didn't participate in these things myself, but I
knew where they happened. The cops regularly busted them even though
they were off in the middle of nowhere. The only people that could be
hurt were the kids driving.. and that, of course, was the problem.
These are kids. The cops just aren't going to ignore this.
--
Kenneth P. Turvey <kt-***@squeakydolphin.com>
Sean_Q_
2008-05-15 20:30:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by P. Roehling
If the idiots weren't out blatantly breaking the laws in public -and
occasionally mowing down innocent nonparticipants into the bargain- odds are
the cops would pretty much ignore them.
You're ignoring an important Fact of Life, namely the challenges to
their manhood faced by testosterone-driven teenage males.

In _Rebel Without a Cause_, typical American angst-laden youths
challenge each other to a game of Chicken. This is an important
Rite of Passage. To decline such a dare would mean shame, disgrace
and loss of prestige with girls.

Two cars race towards a precipice. The first guy to chicken out loses.
The stakes are high. All their peers are there as well as cute teenage
chicks. Darwin and Natural Selection are at work; only the fittest
will survive to court those girls.

Furthermore the mystique is glamorized in ballad, film and games:

Maybellene - Hot Rod Lincoln - Little Deuce Coupe - Dead Man's Curve
- 409 - Shut Down - The Little Old Lady from Pasadena - GTO -
Leader of the Pack - Drag City - Black Denim Trousers & Motorcycle Boots
- Stick Shift - Fun Fun Fun - Torque - Grand Theft Auto

To call them "idiots" is a failure to acknowledge an entire culture.

(Note: by "acknowledge" I don't necessarily mean "approve of".)

SQ
P. Roehling
2008-05-15 22:11:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sean_Q_
To call them "idiots" is a failure to acknowledge an entire culture.
Not at all. I "acknowledge their culture" -meaningless phrase though it is-
because I used to be an idiot myself until I turned about 30 and realized
that (A) I *could* die, (B) that I very likely *was* going to die very
shortly if I kept on doing the things I'd been doing, and (C) dying young no
longer sounded as romantic as it once had.

I repeat: if you're going to blatantly and repeatedly gather in public with
intent to break the law, the law will react quite predictably, and if you
think they won't or shouldn't then you're an idiot. And not even a
well-cultured one, at that.
Henry
2008-05-16 20:14:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by P. Roehling
I used to be an idiot
You flatter yourself. Not only are you still an
idiot, but you're also a liar and a pitiful, self
deprecating coward.
Post by P. Roehling
Hen3ry has stated in the past that it's obvious that
the Pentagon was hit with a cruise missile, and not an
airliner.
Petie, your crippling obsession and your psychosis are
worsening. I said no such thing. I don't know what hit the
Pentagon, and I don't dwell on it because unlike the demolition
of WTC7 and the towers, the evidence is inconclusive. I've said
that before.
On the outside chance that you're not a psychotic lying sack of
shit, and I don't remember what I wrote, you'd be able to produce
a post where I claim a cruise missile hit the Pentagon. Tell ya
what, Petie - you quote a post where I say what you claim I said,
and I won't write another political or 9-11 related post to rec.
motorcycles for at least a year - and I'll apologize for wrongly
insulting your admirable character!
But of course, you won't find that post, and you probably lack
the honesty, integrity, and self respect to admit your mistake.
So, I expect you'll just slither away in shame and disgrace....

As predicted.... <vbg>
Post by P. Roehling
Gravity did not initiate the collapse, because
to move a body from rest requires an outside force,
according to Newton's Laws of Physical Motion.
OMG! That's the single dumbest thing I've ever seen posted on
Usenet, even from Hen3ry, and brother, *that's* saying something!
But of course, you being a psychotically obsessed imbecile,
a pitiful coward, a liar, and a fool, you're again attributing
something to me that I didn't write. That can happen when a
timid imbecile obsesses about its betters while hiding from
them. You end up spewing from a position of ignorance and come
across as even more psychotic and simple minded than usual. And
in your case, that's no small feat. I wonder if I'll ever acquire
a critic with a working mind and a spine.... <VBG>


The only explanation for an array of interconnected
steel box columns measuring over four feet by two
feet with five inch thick walls suddenly disintegrating
and falling thought itself following the path of most
resistance - after it had been stripped of its load -
is controlled demolition. That's also the only explanation
to can account for the molten metal observed in the rubble.
If you've got another theory, structural engineers and
other experts all over the globe would love to hear it.
So would I....

Core remnant disintegration:

Loading Image...
http://st12.startlogic.com/~xenonpup/New_Spire/
http://st12.startlogic.com/~xenonpup/spire/The%20Strange%20Collapse%20of%20the%20Spire.htm


Core photos and facts:

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/wtc1cons1.html
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/core.html





I wonder if Petie "I'm not psychotic at all" Roehling's
"mind" could really be so far gone, that he actually
"thinks" that by spewing childish grade school lies while
he hides, cowers, and obsesses behind his killfile, he
somehow makes me look bad. Is he so deluded that he can't
see he's presenting himself as not only a liar, a fool,
and a pitiful, helpless coward, but a desperately obsessed
self deprecating moron? Does anyone here know this
psychotic, deluded old clown? I suspect the psychotic little
kook really does post from an asylum... <chuckle>


http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2006/11/overwhelming-majority-of-credible.html

MILITARY LEADERS

Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense under President Ronald Reagan
(Col. Ronald D. Ray) said that the official story of 9/11 is "the dog
that doesn't hunt" (bio)

Director of the U.S. "Star Wars" space defense program in both
Republican and Democratic administrations, who was a senior air force
colonel who flew 101 combat missions (Col. Robert Bowman) stated that
9/11 was an inside job. He also said:

"If our government had merely [done] nothing, and I say that as an
old interceptor pilot?I know the drill, I know what it takes, I know how
long it takes, I know what the procedures are, I know what they were,
and I know what they?ve changed them to?if our government had merely
done nothing, and allowed normal procedures to happen on that morning of
9/11, the Twin Towers would still be standing and thousands of dead
Americans would still be alive. [T]hat is treason!"

U.S. Army Air Defense Officer and NORAD Tac Director, decorated with the
Purple Heart, the Bronze Star and the Soldiers Medal (Capt. Daniel
Davis) stated:

"there is no way that an aircraft . . . would not be intercepted
when they deviate from their flight plan, turn off their transponders,
or stop communication with Air Traffic Control ... Attempts to obscure
facts by calling them a 'conspiracy Theory' does not change the truth.
It seems, 'Something is rotten in the State.' "

President of the U.S. Air Force Accident Investigation Board, who also
served as Pentagon Weapons Requirement Officer and as a member of the
Pentagon's Quadrennial Defense Review, and who was awarded Distinguished
Flying Crosses for Heroism, four Air Medals, four Meritorious Service
Medals, and nine Aerial Achievement Medals (Lt. Col. Jeff Latas) is a
member of a group which doubts the government's version of 9/11

U.S. General, Commanding General of U.S. European Command and Supreme
Allied Commander Europe, decorated with the Bronze Star, Silver Star,
and Purple Heart (General Wesley Clark) said "We've never finished the
investigation of 9/11 and whether the administration actually misused
the intelligence information it had. The evidence seems pretty clear to
me. I've seen that for a long time."

Air Force Colonel and key Pentagon official (Lt. Colonel Karen
Kwiatkowski) finds various aspects of 9/11 suspicious. She also said:
(at page 26):

"I have been told by reporters that they will not report their own
insights or contrary evaluations of the official 9/11 story, because to
question the government story about 9/11 is to question the very
foundations of our entire modern belief system regarding our government,
our country, and our way of life. [However], questioning the official
story is also simply and fundamentally American."

Lieutenant colonel, 24-year Air Force career, Vice Chancellor for
Student Affairs at the Defense Language Institute (Lt. Colonel Steve
Butler) said "Of course Bush knew about the impending attacks on
America. He did nothing to warn the American people because he needed
this war on terrorism."

Two-Star general (Major General Albert Stubbelbine) questions the attack
on the Pentagon

U.S. Air Force fighter pilot, former instructor at the USAF Fighter
Weapons School and NATO?s Tactical Leadership Program, with a 20-year
Air Force career (Lt. Colonel Guy S. Razer) said the following:

"I am 100% convinced that the attacks of September 11, 2001 were
planned, organized, and committed by treasonous perpetrators that have
infiltrated the highest levels of our government ....

Those of us in the military took an oath to "support and defend the
Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and
domestic". Just because we have retired does not make that oath invalid,
so it is not just our responsibility, it is our duty to expose the real
perpetrators of 9/11 and bring them to justice, no matter how hard it
is, how long it takes, or how much we have to suffer to do it.

We owe it to those who have gone before us who executed that same
oath, and who are doing the same thing in Iraq and Afghanistan right
now. Those of us who joined the military and faithfully executed orders
that were given us had to trust our leaders. The violation and abuse of
that trust is not only heinous, but ultimately the most accurate
definition of treason!"

U.S. Marine Corps lieutenant colonel, a fighter pilot with over 300
combat missions flown and a 21-year Marine Corps career (Lt. Colonel
Shelton F. Lankford) believes that 9/11 was an inside job, and said:

"This isn't about party, it isn't about Bush Bashing. It's about
our country, our constitution, and our future. ...

Your countrymen have been murdered and the more you delve into it
the more it looks as though they were murdered by our government, who
used it as an excuse to murder other people thousands of miles away.

If you ridicule others who have sincere doubts and who know factual
information that directly contradicts the official report and who want
explanations from those who hold the keys to our government, and have
motive, means, and opportunity to pull off a 9/11, but you are too lazy
or fearful, or ... to check into the facts yourself, what does that make
you? ....

Are you afraid that you will learn the truth and you can't handle
it? ..."

U.S. Navy 'Top Gun' pilot (Commander Ralph Kolstad) who questions the
official account of 9/11 and is calling for a new investigation, says
"When one starts using his own mind, and not what one was told, there is
very little to believe in the official story".

The Group Director on matters of national security in the U.S.
Government Accountability Office said that President Bush did not
respond to unprecedented warnings of the 9/11 disaster and conducted a
massive cover-up instead of accepting responsibility

Additionally, numerous military leaders from allied governments have
questioned 9/11, such as:

Canadian Minister of Defense, the top military leader of Canada (Paul
Hellyer)

Assistant German Defense Minister (Andreas Von Bulow)

Commander-in-chief of the Russian Navy (Anatoli Kornukov)

Chief of staff of the Russian armed forces (General Leonid Ivashov)

INTELLIGENCE PROFESSIONALS

Former military analyst and famed whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg recently
said that the case of a certain 9/11 whistleblower is "far more
explosive than the Pentagon Papers". He also said that the government is
ordering the media to cover up her allegations about 9/11. And he said
that some of the claims concerning government involvement in 9/11 are
credible, that "very serious questions have been raised about what they
[U.S. government officials] knew beforehand and how much involvement
there might have been", that engineering 9/11 would not be humanly or
psychologically beyond the scope of the current administration, and that
there's enough evidence to justify a new, "hard-hitting" investigation
into 9/11 with subpoenas and testimony taken under oath.

A 27-year CIA veteran, who chaired National Intelligence Estimates and
personally delivered intelligence briefings to Presidents Ronald Reagan
and George H.W. Bush, their Vice Presidents, Secretaries of State, the
Joint Chiefs of Staff, and many other senior government officials
(Raymond McGovern) said ?I think at simplest terms, there?s a cover-up.
The 9/11 Report is a joke?, and is open to the possibility that 9/11 was
an inside job.

A 29-year CIA veteran, former National Intelligence Officer (NIO) and
former Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political Analysis
(William Bill Christison) said ?I now think there is persuasive evidence
that the events of September did not unfold as the Bush administration
and the 9/11 Commission would have us believe. ... All three [buildings
that were destroyed in the World Trade Center] were most probably
destroyed by controlled demolition charges placed in the buildings
before 9/11." (and see this).

20-year Marine Corps infantry and intelligence officer, the
second-ranking civilian in U.S. Marine Corps Intelligence, and former
CIA clandestine services case officer (David Steele) stated that "9/11
was at a minimum allowed to happen as a pretext for war", and it was
probably an inside job (see Customer Review dated October 7, 2006).

A decorated 20-year CIA veteran, who Pulitzer-Prize winning
investigative reporter Seymour Hersh called "perhaps the best
on-the-ground field officer in the Middle East?, and whose astounding
career formed the script for the Academy Award winning motion picture
Syriana (Robert Baer) said that"the evidence points at" 9/11 having had
aspects of being an inside job .

The Division Chief of the CIA?s Office of Soviet Affairs, who served as
Senior Analyst from 1966 - 1990. He also served as Professor of
International Security at the National War College from 1986 - 2004
(Melvin Goodman) said "The final [9/11 Commission] report is ultimately
a coverup."

Professor of History and International Relations, University of
Maryland. Former Executive Assistant to the Director of the National
Security Agency. Former military attaché in China. 21-year career in
U.S. Army Intelligence (Major John M. Newman, PhD, U.S. Army)
questions the government's version of the events of 9/11.

The head of all U.S. intelligence, the Director of National Intelligence
(Mike McConnel) said "9/11 should have and could have been prevented"

9/11 COMMISSIONERS

The 9/11 Commissioners knew that military officials lied to the
Commission, and considered recommending criminal charges for such false
statements, yet didn't bother to tell the American people (free
subscription required).

Indeed, the co-chairs of the Commission (Thomas Keane and Lee Hamilton)
now admit that the Commission largely operated based upon political
considerations.

9/11 Commission co-chair Lee Hamilton says "I don't believe for a minute
we got everything right", that the Commission was set up to fail, that
people should keep asking questions about 9/11, that the 9/11 debate
should continue, and that the 9/11 Commission report was only "the first
draft" of history.

9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey said that "There are ample reasons to
suspect that there may be some alternative to what we outlined in our
version . . . We didn't have access . . . ."

9/11 Commissioner Timothy Roemer said "We were extremely frustrated with
the false statements we were getting"

Former 9/11 Commissioner Max Cleland resigned from the Commission,
stating: "It is a national scandal"; "This investigation is now
compromised"; and "One of these days we will have to get the full story
because the 9-11 issue is so important to America. But this White House
wants to cover it up".

The Senior Counsel to the 9/11 Commission (John Farmer) who led the 9/11
staff's inquiry, said "I was shocked at how different the truth was from
the way it was described .... The tapes told a radically different story
from what had been told to us and the public for two years.... This is
not spin. This is not true."
SCIENTISTS

A prominent physicist with 33 years of service for the Naval Research
Laboratory in Washington, DC (Dr. David L. Griscom) said that the
official theory for why the Twin Towers and world trade center building
7 collapsed "does not match the available facts" and supports the theory
that the buildings were brought down by controlled demolition

A world-renowned scientist, recipient of the National Medal of Science,
America's highest honor for scientific achievement (Dr. Lynn Margulis) said:

"I suggest that those of us aware and concerned demand that the
glaringly erroneous official account of 9/11 be dismissed as a fraud and
a new, thorough, and impartial investigation be undertaken."

The former head of the Fire Science Division of the government agency
which claims that the World Trade Centers collapsed due to fire (the
National Institute of Standards and Technology), who is a Ph.D. in
mechanical engineering, with more than 25 years experience in fire
research and its applications, and is a professor in the Department of
Fire Protection Engineering at the University of Maryland (Dr. James
Quintiere), called for an independent review of the World Trade Center
Twin Tower collapse investigation. "I wish that there would be a peer
review of this," he said, referring to the NIST investigation. "I think
all the records that NIST has assembled should be archived. I would
really like to see someone else take a look at what they've done; both
structurally and from a fire point of view. ... I think the official
conclusion that NIST arrived at is questionable."

Former Director for Research, Director for Aeronautical Projects, and
Flight Research Program Manager for NASA's Dryden Flight Research
Center, who holds masters degrees in both physics and engineering (Dwain
A. Deets) says:

"The many visual images (massive structural members being hurled
horizontally, huge pyroclastic clouds, etc.) leave no doubt in my mind
explosives were involved [in the destruction of the World Trade Centers
on 9/11].''

A prominent physicist, former U.S. professor of physics from a top
university, and a former principal investigator for the U.S. Department
of Energy, Division of Advanced Energy Projects (Dr. Steven E. Jones)
stated that the world trade centers were brought down by controlled
demolition

A U.S. physics professor who teaches at several universities (Dr.
Crockett Grabbe) believes that the World Trade Centers were brought down
by controlled demolition

An expert on demolition (Bent Lund) said that the trade centers were
brought down with explosives (in Danish)
A Dutch demolition expert (Danny Jowenko) stated that WTC 7 was imploded

A safety engineer and accident analyst for the Finnish National Safety
Technology Authority (Dr. Heikki Kurttila) stated regarding WTC 7 that
"The great speed of the collapse and the low value of the resistance
factor strongly suggest controlled demolition."

A 13-year professor of metallurgical engineering at a U.S. university,
with a PhD in materials engineering, a former Congressional Office of
Technology Assessment Senior Staff Member (Dr. Joel S. Hirschhorn), is
calling for a new investigation of 9/11

A Danish professor of chemistry (Dr. Niels Harrit) said, in a mainstream
Danish newspaper, "WTC7 collapsed exactly like a house of cards. If the
fires or damage in one corner had played a decisive role, the building
would have fallen in that direction. You don't have to be a woodcutter
to grasp this" (translated)

A former guidance systems engineer for Polaris and Trident missiles and
professor emeritus, mathematics and computer science at a university
concluded (Dr. Bruce R. Henry) that the Twin Towers "were brought down
by planted explosives."

A professor of mathematics (Gary Welz) said "The official explanation
that I've heard doesn't make sense because it doesn't explain why I
heard and felt an explosion before the South Tower fell and why the
concrete was pulverized"
STRUCTURAL ENGINEERS AND ARCHITECTS

A prominent engineer with 55 years experience, in charge of the design
of hundreds of major building projects including high rise offices,
former member of the California Seismic Safety Commission and former
member of the National Institute of Sciences Building Safety Council
(Marx Ayres) believes that the World Trade Centers were brought down by
controlled demolition (see also this)

Two professors of structural engineering at a prestigious Swiss
university (Dr. Joerg Schneider and Dr. Hugo Bachmann) said that, on
9/11, World Trade Center 7 was brought down by controlled demolition
(translation here)
Charles Pegelow, structural engineer, of Houston, Texas (and see this)

Dennis Kollar, structural engineer, of West Bend, Wisconsin

Doyle Winterton, structural engineer (retired)

Haluk Akol, Structural Engineer and architect (ret.)

William Rice, P.E., structural engineer, former professor of Vermont
Technical College

An architect, member of the American Institute of Architects, who has
been a practicing architect for 20 years and has been responsible for
the production of construction documents for numerous steel-framed and
fire-protected buildings for uses in many different areas, including
education, civic, rapid transit and industrial use (Richard Gage)
disputes the claim that fire and airplane damage brought down the World
Trade Centers and believes there is strong evidence of controlled
demolition (many other architects who question 9/11 are listed here)

LEGAL SCHOLARS

Former Federal Prosecutor, Office of Special Investigations, U.S.
Department of Justice under Presidents Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan;
former U.S. Army Intelligence officer, and currently a widely-sought
media commentator on terrorism and intelligence services (John Loftus)
questions the government's version of 9/11.

Former Inspector General, U.S. Department of Transportation; former
Professor of Aviation, Dept. of Aerospace Engineering and Aviation and
Professor of Public Policy, Ohio State University (Mary Schiavo)
questions the government's version of 9/11.

Professor of International Law at the University of Illinois, Champaign;
a leading practitioner and advocate of international law; responsible
for drafting the Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act of 1989, the
American implementing legislation for the 1972 Biological Weapons
Convention; served on the Board of Directors of Amnesty International
(1988-1992), and represented Bosnia- Herzegovina at the World Court,
with a Doctor of Law Magna Cum Laude as well as a Ph.D. in Political
Science, both from Harvard University (Dr. Francis Boyle) questions the
government's version of 9/11.

Former prosecutor in the Organized Crime and Racketeering Section of the
U.S. Justice Department and a key member of Attorney General Bobby
Kennedy?s anti-corruption task force; former assistant U.S. Attorney for
the Northern District of Illinois (J. Terrence "Terry" Brunner)
questions the government's version of 9/11.

Professor Emeritus, International Law, Professor of Politics and
International Affairs, Princeton University; in 2001 served on the
three-person UN Commission on Human Rights for the Palestine
Territories, and previously, on the Independent International Commission
on Kosovo (Richard Falk) questions the government's version of 9/11.

Bessie Dutton Murray Distinguished Professor of Law Emeritus and
Director, Center for Human Rights, University of Iowa; Fellow, World
Academy of Art and Science. Honorary Editor, Board of Editors, American
Journal of International Law (Burns H. Weston) questions the
government's version of 9/11.

Former president of the National Lawyers Guild (C. Peter Erlinder), who
signed a petition calling for a real investigation into 9/11. And see
petition.

Assistant Professor of Criminal Justice at Troy University; associate
General Counsel, National Association of Federal Agents; Retired Agent
in Charge, Internal Affairs, U.S. Customs, responsible for the internal
integrity and security for areas encompassing nine states and two
foreign locations; former Federal Sky Marshall; 27-year U.S. Customs
career (Mark Conrad) questions the government's version of 9/11.

Professor of Law, University of Freiburg; former Minister of Justice of
West Germany (Horst Ehmke) questions the government's version of 9/11.

Director of Academic Programs, Institute for Policy and Economic
Development, University of Texas, El Paso, specializing in executive
branch secrecy policy, governmental abuse, and law and bureaucracy;
former U.S. Army Signals Intelligence officer; author of several books
on law and political theory (Dr. William G. Weaver) questions the
government's version of 9/11.

Famed trial attorney (Gerry Spence) questions the government's version
of 9/11.

Former Instructor of Criminal Trial Practice, Boalt Hall School of Law,
University of California at Berkeley 11-year teaching career. Retired
Chief Assistant Public Defender, Contra Costa County, California 31-year
career (William Veale) said:

"When you grow up in the United States, there are some bedrock
principles that require concerted effort to discard. One is the
simplest: that our leaders are good and decent people whose efforts may
occasionally warrant criticism but never because of malice or
venality... But one grows up. ... And with the lawyer's training comes
the reliance on evidence and the facts that persuade... After a lot of
reading, thought, study, and commiseration, I have come to the
conclusion that the attacks of 9/11 were, in their essence, an inside
job perpetrated at the highest levels of the U S government."

MEMBERS OF CONGRESS

Current U.S. Senator (Patrick Leahy) states "The two questions that the
congress will not ask . . . is why did 9/11 happen on George Bush's
watch when he had clear warnings that it was going to happen? Why did
they allow it to happen?"

Current Republican Congressman (Ron Paul) states that "we see the [9/11]
investigations that have been done so far as more or less cover-up and
no real explanation of what went on"

Current Democratic Congressman (Dennis Kucinich) hints that we aren't
being told the truth about 9/11

Former Democratic Senator (Mike Gravel) states that he supports a new
9/11 investigation and that we don't know the truth about 9/11

Former U.S. Republican Congressman and senior member of the House Armed
Services Committee, and who served six years as the Chairman of the
Military Research and Development Subcommittee (Curt Weldon) has shown
that the U.S. tracked hijackers before 9/11, is open to hearing
information about explosives in the Twin Towers, and is open to the
possibility that 9/11 was an inside job

FAMILY MEMBERS AND HEROIC FIRST RESPONDERS

A common criticism of those who question 9/11 is that they are being
"disrespectful to the victims and their families".

However, half of the victim's families believe that 9/11 was an inside
job (according to the head of the largest 9/11 family group, Bill Doyle)
(and listen to this interview). Many family and friends of victims not
only support the search for 9/11 truth, but they demand it (please
ignore the partisan tone). See also this interview.

Indeed, it has now become so clear that the 9/11 Commission was a
whitewash that the same 9/11 widows who called for the creation of the
9/11 Commission are now demanding a NEW investigation (see also this video).

And dying heroes, soon-to-be victims themselves, the first responders
who worked tirelessly to save lives on and after 9/11, say that
controlled demolition brought down the Twin Towers and that a real
investigation is necessary.

PSYCHIATRISTS AND PSYCHOLOGISTS

Finally, those who attack people who question the government's version
of 9/11 as "crazy" may wish to review the list of mental health
professionals who have concluded that the official version of 9/11 is false:

Psychiatrist Carol S. Wolman, MD

Psychiatrist E. Martin Schotz

Associate Clinical Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Duke
University Medical Center, as well as Radiology, at Duke University
Medical Center D. Lawrence Burk, Jr., MD

Board of Governors Distinguished Service Professor of Psychology and
Associate Dean of the Graduate School at Ruters University Barry R.
Komisaruk

Professor of Psychology at University of New Hampshire William Woodward

Professor of Psychology at University of Essex Philip Cozzolino

Professor of Psychology at Goddard College Catherine Lowther

Professor Emeritus of Psychology at California Institute of Integral
Studies Ralph Metzner

Professor of Psychology at Rhodes University Mike Earl-Taylor

Retired Professor of Psychology at Oxford University Graham Harris

Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology from the University of Nebraska and
licensed Psychologist Ronald Feintech

Ph.D. Clinical Neuropsychologist Richard Welser

THOUSANDS OF OTHERS

The roster above is only a sample. There are too many Ph.D. scientists
and engineers, architects, military and intelligence officials,
politicians, legal scholars and other highly-credible people who
question 9/11 -- literally thousands -- to list in one place. Here are a
few additional people to consider:

The former director of the FBI (Louis Freeh) says there was a cover up
by the 9/11 Commission

Former air traffic controller, who knows the flight corridor which the
two planes which hit the Twin Towers flew "like the back of my hand" and
who handled two actual hijackings (Robin Hordon) says that 9/11 could
not have occurred as the government says, and that planes can be tracked
on radar even when their transponders are turned off (also, listen to
this interview)

Perhaps "the premiere collapse expert in the country", who 9/11
Commissioner Timothy Roemer referred to as a "very, very respected
expert on building collapse", the head of the New York Fire Department's
Special Operations Command and the most highly decorated firefighter in
its NYFD history, who had previously "commanded rescue operations at
many difficult and complex disasters, including the Oklahoma City
Bombing, the 1993 World Trade Center Bombing, and many natural disasters
worldwide" thought that the collapse of the South Tower was caused by
bombs, because the collapse of the building was too even to have been
caused by anything else (pages 5-6).

Former Deputy Secretary for Intelligence and Warning under Nixon, Ford,
and Carter (Morton Goulder), former former Deputy Director to the White
House Task Force on Terrorism (Edward L. Peck), and former US Department
of State Foreign Service Officer (J. Michael Springmann), as well as a
who's who of liberals and independents) jointly call for a new
investigation into 9/11

Former FBI agent (Robert Wright) says "The FBI, rather than trying to
prevent a terrorist attack, was merely gathering intelligence so they
would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred."

Former FBI translator, who the Department of Justice's Inspector General
and several senators have called extremely credible (free subscription
required) (Sibel Edmonds), said "If they were to do real investigations
we would see several significant high level criminal prosecutions in
this country. And that is something that they are not going to let out.
And, believe me; they will do everything to cover this up". She also is
leaning towards the conclusion that 9/11 was an inside job.



http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2007/05/structural-engineers-question-collapse.html

Structural Engineers Question Collapse of the World Trade Center
One of the arguments that government apologists have used in trying to
prop up the official story of why the World Trade Centers came down on
9/11 is that no structural engineers have questioned the government's
version of events. However, that is now changing.

The following structural engineers have now publicly challenged the
government's account of the destruction of the Trade Centers on 9/11:

Hugo Bachmann and Jörg Schneider, both emeritus professors in
structural engineering at a prestigious Swiss university (translation
here)

Doyle Winterton, structural engineer (retired)

Joseph M. Phelps, MS, PE. Structural Dynamicist (ret.), Charter Member,
Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil
Engineers

Charles Pegelow, structural engineer, of Houston, Texas

William Rice, P.E., structural engineer, former professor of Vermont
Technical College

When considered along with the other prominent scientists who question
9/11, it becomes impossible for any thinking person to accept at face
value the government's version of the destruction of the World Trade
Center.

More experts who who have used science and hard evidence to prove
demolition:

http://journalof911studies.com/

Still more engineers and experts who explain why the Bush regime's
magic fire theory is physically impossible.

http://ae911truth.org/

Another one:

http://www.vermontguardian.com/commentary/032007/TwinTowers.shtml

And quite a few more:

http://911proof.com/10.html

More yet:

http://11syyskuu.blogspot.com/2006/02/destruction-of-wtc-7.html

And a couple hundred more:

http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/engineers.html
--
http://911research.wtc7.net
http://www.911truth.org
http://stopthelie.com/1-hour_guide_to_911.html


Here's what happens to steel framed buildings exposed
to raging infernos for hours on end.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/compare/fires.html
http://davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr69c.html

On 9-11-01, WTC7, a 47 story steel framed building, which
had only small, random fires, dropped in perfect symmetry
at near free fall speed as in a perfectly executed controlled
demolition.

http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/videos.html
http://wtc7.net/articles/FEMA/WTC_ch5.htm

Ever wonder who benefits from the 700 MILLION
U.S. taxpayer dollars spent each DAY in Iraq?
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0223-08.htm
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?list=type&type=21

"They are waging a campaign of murder and destruction. And
there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to
take... men with blind hatred and armed with lethal weapons
who are capable of any atrocity... they respect no laws of
warfare or morality."
-bu$h describing his own illegal invasion of Iraq.
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm

http://www.commondreams.org/
http://thirdworldtraveler.com/

"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things
that matter." -- Martin Luther King Jr.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is
not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."
-- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

Don't let bu$h do to the United States what his very close
friend and top campaign contributor, Ken Lay, did to Enron...
Rob Kleinschmidt
2008-05-15 21:49:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by P. Roehling
They ignored us, and practically everybody I knew in high school -myself
included- participated in street racing. But we kept it pretty quiet and
made darned sure we held our races way out on some abandoned runway or other
location where there was no chance of (A) accidentally killing some innocent
passerby or (B) getting caught by the cops.
IIRC, there was a much, much more casual attitude about
smoking, drinking, contests of speed. firearms, explosives,
pocketknives, DUI etc.

Just about everything except drugs, Communism and gayness
seemed to get mostly written off as youthful hijinks if done
discretely. Avoid the big three and you were pretty much OK.
P. Roehling
2008-05-15 22:24:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob Kleinschmidt
Post by P. Roehling
They ignored us, and practically everybody I knew in high school -myself
included- participated in street racing. But we kept it pretty quiet and
made darned sure we held our races way out on some abandoned runway or other
location where there was no chance of (A) accidentally killing some innocent
passerby or (B) getting caught by the cops.
IIRC, there was a much, much more casual attitude about
smoking, drinking, contests of speed. firearms, explosives,
pocketknives, DUI etc.
Just about everything except drugs, Communism and gayness
seemed to get mostly written off as youthful hijinks if done
discretely. Avoid the big three and you were pretty much OK.
True. Which reminds me of a story:

Back in the radical 60s I had a gig in the fabled San Fernando Valley, and
as I had some time to kill before the show I took my guitar down the block
and sat on the railing of a bridge and began singing "Ooze On, L.A. River"
whilst I gazed upon the glorious watercourse itself. (It's solid concrete as
far as the eye can see.)

As I was singing, a little old lady came along pushing a shopping cart piled
high with enough groceries to feed the 5th Panzer Division.

She stopped and listened to me politely until I had finished, then piped
"Are you a Communist, dear?"

I told her no, that I was in fact a Republican. She seemed disappointed, but
went along her way without further editorial comment.
S'mee
2008-05-15 23:25:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sean_Q_
Post by P. Roehling
Despite the euphemism, these aren't just innocent "car enthusiasts"; they're
almost entirely street racers who regularly gather at these locations to
scout out the opposition, drink and smoke some shit, and then decide where
they're going to race later on that evening.
You're right; these obviously guilty malefactors should be inspected,
detected, rejected and persecuted to the Full Extent of the Law and
Beyond.
This applies to bikers as well; for instance the Buell sales brochure
says their streetfighter product line was designed "in the spirit
of pure hooliganism" and any person riding one is an obvious suspect.
SQ
AH! But it's exhaust and every other bit as supplied to the original
purchaser IS D.O.T. legal and as such the coppers can bloddy well fuck
off in a snit.
--
Keith S
Justin
2008-05-15 16:26:27 UTC
Permalink
B. Peg <***@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

: Police raid Riverside, California parking lot to issue modified car
: tickets at local car enthusiast gathering.

The police have a hard time catching them for racing since they generally
do it late at night and not at predetermined locations. Consequently if
they're going to catch them they've got to do it for what they can, when
they can.

Fine by me if it helps keep these maniacs off the streets.

Justin
'07 Suzuki SV650
'02 Honda Shadow VT750DC
'69 Triumph TR25W
tylernt
2008-05-16 00:49:56 UTC
Permalink
I'm having a hard time understanding how they can ticket someone for
non-DOT equipment if the car is in a private parking lot and not being
operated on a public road. Take a Nascar race car, for example: no
headlights, no front license plate, slick tires. Illegal on the
street. Yet, I don't see cops arresting all the Nascar drivers when
they get together on a private track for the Indiana 500.

Then again, maybe the Great Nanny State has made the mere possession
of non-DOT equipment a crime? I suppose that shouldn't surprise me.
Bob Mann
2008-05-16 12:51:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by tylernt
I'm having a hard time understanding how they can ticket someone for
non-DOT equipment if the car is in a private parking lot and not being
operated on a public road. Take a Nascar race car, for example: no
headlights, no front license plate, slick tires. Illegal on the
street. Yet, I don't see cops arresting all the Nascar drivers when
they get together on a private track for the Indiana 500.
Then again, maybe the Great Nanny State has made the mere possession
of non-DOT equipment a crime? I suppose that shouldn't surprise me.
I've never seen a Nascar vehicle registered for street use.
--
Bob Mann

Cap'n, ah need moor pow'r.
Vito
2008-05-16 14:12:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Mann
I've never seen a Nascar vehicle registered for street use.
No ... but it'd be fun provided one could make it turn right as well as
left.
tylernt
2008-05-16 14:33:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Mann
Post by tylernt
I'm having a hard time understanding how they can ticket someone for
non-DOT equipment if the car is in a private parking lot and not being
operated on a public road. Take a Nascar race car, for example: no
I've never seen a Nascar vehicle registered for street use.
And yet, I know of many car enthusiasts who put on slick tires and
race their otherwise street-legal daily driver on a track on the
weekends. Will they be ticketed for operating a registered vehicle at
100MPH with non-DOT tires on private property?

Unless the police have video proof or witnesses observed the modified
cars being driven on public roads, I don't think there is sufficient
proof to convict. I don't care if the judge "thinks" they drove to the
parking lot illegally... in our country, we should only convict on
proof (or at least evidence beyond a reasonable doubt), not "feelings"
or "suspicion".
Vito
2008-05-18 00:22:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by tylernt
Unless the police have video proof or witnesses observed the modified
cars being driven on public roads, I don't think there is sufficient
proof to convict. I don't care if the judge "thinks" they drove to the
parking lot illegally... in our country, .....
You're right but this didn't happen in "OUR COUNTRY" it happened in
California.

Lots of crap that wouldn't be tolerated in the states goes on there.
Jeff Mayner
2008-05-18 02:15:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vito
Post by tylernt
Unless the police have video proof or witnesses observed the modified
cars being driven on public roads, I don't think there is sufficient
proof to convict. I don't care if the judge "thinks" they drove to the
parking lot illegally... in our country, .....
You're right but this didn't happen in "OUR COUNTRY" it happened in
California.
Lots of crap that wouldn't be tolerated in the states goes on there.
<sigh>

Los Angeles and San Francisco are not California. They are in California,
yes, but that doesn't mean that all Californians are like them.

When will this anti-California bias end? If you Red State/ Blue State
California you would see a bunch of blue areas around LA and San Francisco.
The entire rest of the state would be red.

Gut-damn this shit gets me angry.
.***@see_my_sig_for_address.com
2008-05-18 02:26:22 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 May 2008 19:15:06 -0700, "Jeff Mayner"
Post by Jeff Mayner
Post by Vito
Post by tylernt
Unless the police have video proof or witnesses observed the modified
cars being driven on public roads, I don't think there is sufficient
proof to convict. I don't care if the judge "thinks" they drove to the
parking lot illegally... in our country, .....
You're right but this didn't happen in "OUR COUNTRY" it happened in
California.
Lots of crap that wouldn't be tolerated in the states goes on there.
<sigh>
Los Angeles and San Francisco are not California. They are in California,
yes, but that doesn't mean that all Californians are like them.
When will this anti-California bias end?
After the quake.
Post by Jeff Mayner
If you Red State/ Blue State
California you would see a bunch of blue areas around LA and San Francisco.
The entire rest of the state would be red.
Gut-damn this shit gets me angry.
You let the fruits take over, don't blame us. HELL, you even
let them get 'married' now.
--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo online at www.pmilligan.net/palm/
Free 'People finder' program now at www.pmilligan.net/finder.htm
S'mee
2008-05-18 03:37:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by .***@see_my_sig_for_address.com
On Sat, 17 May 2008 19:15:06 -0700, "Jeff Mayner"
Post by Jeff Mayner
Post by Vito
Post by tylernt
Unless the police have video proof or witnesses observed the modified
cars being driven on public roads, I don't think there is sufficient
proof to convict. I don't care if the judge "thinks" they drove to the
parking lot illegally... in our country, .....
You're right but this didn't happen in "OUR COUNTRY" it happened in
California.
Lots of crap that wouldn't be tolerated in the states goes on there.
<sigh>
Los Angeles and San Francisco are not California. They are in California,
yes, but that doesn't mean that all Californians are like them.
When will this anti-California bias end?
        After the quake.
Post by Jeff Mayner
If you Red State/ Blue State
California you would see a bunch of blue areas around LA and San Francisco.
The entire rest of the state would be red.
Gut-damn this shit gets me angry.
        You let the fruits take over, don't blame us.  
Yep.
Post by .***@see_my_sig_for_address.com
HELL, you even let them get 'married' now.
Tough shit, marry whom you want I say. If you don't like it either
leave or go hide in the hills of Utah in a nice little bunker and
your 14 year old wives... Religious nutjobs wanting to run peoples
lives are just as bad as other fruitcakes trying to tell people how to
live. Can't stand either bunch. I do appreciate the fact that the
existance of the left and the right PROVE there are no gods nor a
single god. Thanks fools.
Chuck Rhode
2008-05-19 14:25:26 UTC
Permalink
I do appreciate the fact that the existance of the left and the
right PROVE there are no gods nor a single god.
... or at least that there is no centrist god.
--
.. Chuck Rhode, Sheboygan, WI, USA
.. 1979 Honda Goldwing GL1000 (Geraldine)
.. Weather: http://LacusVeris.com/WX
.. 52° — Wind NW 12 mph
S'mee
2008-05-20 03:03:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuck Rhode
I do appreciate the fact that the existance of the left and the
right PROVE there are no gods nor a single god.
... or at least that there is no centrist god.
Oh but there is and it's name is Entropy. ;^)
--
Keith S

Michael R. Kesti
2008-05-18 18:42:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Mayner
<sigh>
Los Angeles and San Francisco are not California. They are in California,
yes, but that doesn't mean that all Californians are like them.
There's some truth. If there could be a median Californian he would
be a mildly hispanic farmer wearing a trucker's cap and bib overalls.
Post by Jeff Mayner
When will this anti-California bias end? If you Red State/ Blue State
California you would see a bunch of blue areas around LA and San Francisco.
The entire rest of the state would be red.
Berkeley, of course, would be the deepest imaginable shade of sapphire.
Post by Jeff Mayner
Gut-damn this shit gets me angry.
Oh, well, I used to get disgusted but now I try to be amused.
--
========================================================================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
mrkesti at hotmail dot com | - The Who, Bargain
Jeff Mayner
2008-05-16 19:09:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Mann
Post by tylernt
I'm having a hard time understanding how they can ticket someone for
non-DOT equipment if the car is in a private parking lot and not being
operated on a public road. Take a Nascar race car, for example: no
headlights, no front license plate, slick tires. Illegal on the
street. Yet, I don't see cops arresting all the Nascar drivers when
they get together on a private track for the Indiana 500.
Then again, maybe the Great Nanny State has made the mere possession
of non-DOT equipment a crime? I suppose that shouldn't surprise me.
I've never seen a Nascar vehicle registered for street use.
I hve often dreamed of running one of those bad boys, sans decals, on the
local Southern California freeways.

That'd be fun. ;-)
Post by Bob Mann
--
Bob Mann
Cap'n, ah need moor pow'r.
Turby
2008-05-16 20:49:39 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 16 May 2008 12:09:36 -0700, "Jeff Mayner"
Post by Jeff Mayner
Post by Bob Mann
I've never seen a Nascar vehicle registered for street use.
I hve often dreamed of running one of those bad boys, sans decals, on the
local Southern California freeways.
That'd be fun. ;-)
I assume you don't mean during rush hour when it's a parking lot.
--
Turby the Turbosurfer
S'mee
2008-05-16 22:33:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Turby
On Fri, 16 May 2008 12:09:36 -0700, "Jeff Mayner"
Post by Jeff Mayner
Post by Bob Mann
I've never seen a Nascar vehicle registered for street use.
I hve often dreamed of running one of those bad boys, sans decals, on the
local Southern California freeways.
That'd be fun.  ;-)
I assume you don't mean during rush hour when it's a parking lot.
Some decent aux photon projectors set to "Melt Meredes" and a similar
quality air horn should mitigate all but the most bovine miscrents
rapid movement to the nearest ditch.
--
Keith S
Smart? If I were smart I wouldn't be here now then would I?
B. Peg
2008-05-17 05:16:38 UTC
Permalink
....I don't mean during rush hour when it's a parking lot.
Anyone speeding then should be given an award.

Around these parts, the CHP sits on their bikes (or in their cars) under
highway overpasses during rush hours. Maybe they are escaping the heat.
However, any traffic moving - even at 25mph - slam on their brakes when they
see them and traffic continually backs up. Wouldn't be surprised if the CHP
doesn't cause some freeway accidents by their behavior.

B~
P. Roehling
2008-05-17 08:20:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. Peg
Around these parts, the CHP sits on their bikes (or in their cars) under
highway overpasses during rush hours. Maybe they are escaping the heat.
However, any traffic moving - even at 25mph - slam on their brakes when
they see them and traffic continually backs up. Wouldn't be surprised if
the CHP doesn't cause some freeway accidents by their behavior.
Heh. I once owned a bike whose speedometer readings were more than slightly
askew, so I stopped past the Banning CHP office one day and asked if anyone
going on duty would pace me up to 65 MPH and then hit me with his lights to
let me know when I got there so I'd know exactly how far the speedo was off
at freeway speeds.

The watch commander heard my request and got very irate saying "NO! We won't
do that! Why you could cause an accident on the freeway if some other driver
panicked when he saw the lights come on!".

I did a slow double take and replied "Well you guys red light a bunch of
motorists on the freeways every single day; so do you cause a lot of
accidents doing that? I mean, it seems you wouldn't do it all the time if
it were really dangerous..."

At this point the two CHPs standing behind the watch commander had their
hands over their mouths trying not to laugh out loud, but he realized that
he'd said something indefensibly dumb and began to blush furiously while he
ordered me to leave, muttering something about how the CHP "weren't there to
be used".

Later that day I found another CHP calibrating his radar by the side of a
mountain road, and he was perfectly happy to help and didn't seem to find it
an unreasonable request.

Turned out the bike's speedo was reading just under 75 MPH at a CHP
calibrated 65, so I was able thereafter to cruise at that (indicated) speed
in the knowledge that I was golden.
Jeff Mayner
2008-05-17 09:24:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by P. Roehling
Post by B. Peg
Around these parts, the CHP sits on their bikes (or in their cars) under
highway overpasses during rush hours. Maybe they are escaping the heat.
However, any traffic moving - even at 25mph - slam on their brakes when
they see them and traffic continually backs up. Wouldn't be surprised if
the CHP doesn't cause some freeway accidents by their behavior.
Heh. I once owned a bike whose speedometer readings were more than
slightly askew, so I stopped past the Banning CHP office one day and asked
if anyone going on duty would pace me up to 65 MPH and then hit me with
his lights to let me know when I got there so I'd know exactly how far the
speedo was off at freeway speeds.
The watch commander heard my request and got very irate saying "NO! We
won't do that! Why you could cause an accident on the freeway if some
other driver panicked when he saw the lights come on!".
I did a slow double take and replied "Well you guys red light a bunch of
motorists on the freeways every single day; so do you cause a lot of
accidents doing that? I mean, it seems you wouldn't do it all the time if
it were really dangerous..."
At this point the two CHPs standing behind the watch commander had their
hands over their mouths trying not to laugh out loud, but he realized that
he'd said something indefensibly dumb and began to blush furiously while
he ordered me to leave, muttering something about how the CHP "weren't
there to be used".
Later that day I found another CHP calibrating his radar by the side of a
mountain road, and he was perfectly happy to help and didn't seem to find
it an unreasonable request.
Turned out the bike's speedo was reading just under 75 MPH at a CHP
calibrated 65, so I was able thereafter to cruise at that (indicated)
speed in the knowledge that I was golden.
Wow. 10 mph optomistic? I don't feel so bad about my ST's +5.
B. Peg
2008-05-17 10:31:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Mayner
Post by P. Roehling
Heh. I once owned a bike whose speedometer readings were more than
slightly askew, so I stopped past the Banning CHP office one day and
asked if anyone going on duty would pace me up to 65 MPH and then hit me
with his lights to let me know when I got there so I'd know exactly how
far the speedo was off at freeway speeds.
The watch commander heard my request and got very irate saying "NO! We
won't do that! Why you could cause an accident on the freeway if some
other driver panicked when he saw the lights come on!".
I did a slow double take and replied "Well you guys red light a bunch of
motorists on the freeways every single day; so do you cause a lot of
accidents doing that? I mean, it seems you wouldn't do it all the time
if it were really dangerous..."
At this point the two CHPs standing behind the watch commander had their
hands over their mouths trying not to laugh out loud, but he realized
that he'd said something indefensibly dumb and began to blush furiously
while he ordered me to leave, muttering something about how the CHP
"weren't there to be used".
Later that day I found another CHP calibrating his radar by the side of a
mountain road, and he was perfectly happy to help and didn't seem to find
it an unreasonable request.
Turned out the bike's speedo was reading just under 75 MPH at a CHP
calibrated 65, so I was able thereafter to cruise at that (indicated)
speed in the knowledge that I was golden.
Wow. 10 mph optomistic? I don't feel so bad about my ST's +5.
I remember when the CHP first got their R1100RTP models in 1997.
Speedometers were off as on all the damn bikes. They had to stop issuing
tickets written by following using their speedometers until BMW installed
calibrated heads.

Meanwhile, we still get the lousy optimistic reading heads - although they
seem to be getting better of late..

B~
Michael R. Kesti
2008-05-18 18:30:59 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Jeff Mayner
Post by P. Roehling
Turned out the bike's speedo was reading just under 75 MPH at a CHP
calibrated 65, so I was able thereafter to cruise at that (indicated)
speed in the knowledge that I was golden.
Wow. 10 mph optomistic? I don't feel so bad about my ST's +5.
My GL1200 is 10% optimistic. Between 45 and 55 I subtract 4 MPH from
the indicated speed to compute something nearer to actual speed. Between
55 and 65 I subtract 5, between 65 and 75 I subtract 6, etc. So, when the
speedo says 72 or 73 I figure I'm doing the 65 MPH freeway legal limit.

The shits is that the cruise control won't hold higher than 80 MPH
indicated which is only about 75 actual. That speed results in being
passed continually on the freeways I have occasion to ride!
--
========================================================================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
mrkesti at hotmail dot com | - The Who, Bargain
S'mee
2008-05-18 20:10:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael R. Kesti
<snip>
Post by Jeff Mayner
Post by P. Roehling
Turned out the bike's speedo was reading just under 75 MPH at a CHP
calibrated 65, so I was able thereafter to cruise at that (indicated)
speed in the knowledge that I was golden.
Wow. 10 mph optomistic? I don't feel so bad about my ST's +5.
My GL1200 is 10% optimistic.  Between 45 and 55 I subtract 4 MPH from
the indicated speed to compute something nearer to actual speed.  Between
55 and 65 I subtract 5, between 65 and 75 I subtract 6, etc.  So, when the
speedo says 72 or 73 I figure I'm doing the 65 MPH freeway legal limit.
WOW! I feel privilaged. 5% for my GL1000 but I suspect tire choice
might affect the numbers. Now if I could sort out the schizophrenic
fuel gage...for the first half a tank it's pessimistic and the last
half is optomistic.
Post by Michael R. Kesti
The shits is that the cruise control won't hold higher than 80 MPH
indicated which is only about 75 actual.  That speed results in being
passed continually on the freeways I have occasion to ride!
I took my cruise control off. Kept getting in the way of passing
morons.
Michael R. Kesti
2008-05-18 20:15:08 UTC
Permalink
S'mee wrote:

<snip>
Post by S'mee
I took my cruise control off. Kept getting in the way of passing
morons.
How did it get in the way?
--
========================================================================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
mrkesti at hotmail dot com | - The Who, Bargain
S'mee
2008-05-18 22:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael R. Kesti
<snip>
Post by S'mee
I took my cruise control off. Kept getting in the way of passing
morons.
How did it get in the way?
Well...I tend to go down 2 gears and pin it. 8^) Those non-electron
powered cruise controls are rather single minded.
--
Keith S
Michael R. Kesti
2008-05-19 03:20:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by S'mee
Post by Michael R. Kesti
<snip>
Post by S'mee
I took my cruise control off. Kept getting in the way of passing
morons.
How did it get in the way?
Well...I tend to go down 2 gears and pin it. 8^) Those non-electron
powered cruise controls are rather single minded.
Are you talking about a throttle lock?
--
========================================================================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
mrkesti at hotmail dot com | - The Who, Bargain
S'mee
2008-05-19 04:16:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael R. Kesti
Post by S'mee
Post by Michael R. Kesti
<snip>
Post by S'mee
I took my cruise control off. Kept getting in the way of passing
morons.
How did it get in the way?
Well...I tend to go down 2 gears and pin it. 8^) Those non-electron
powered cruise controls are rather single minded.
Are you talking about a throttle lock?
Throttle lock, cruise control it's all the same to me. Nothing but a
great way to get complacent and not pay attention to the road. I use/
used them but find it more tiring because you have to concentrate
harder on the morons out there. <shrug> When not used I don't even
have think about which one is going to get stupid first.
--
Keith S
B. Peg
2008-05-18 21:24:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael R. Kesti
The shits is that the cruise control won't hold higher than 80 MPH
indicated which is only about 75 actual. That speed results in being
passed continually on the freeways I have occasion to ride!
I got to talk to my dealer about the BMW cruise control on the GT. It kicks
out above 130 mph. Annoys the hell out of me. ;o\

B~
Vito
2008-05-18 00:27:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. Peg
Around these parts, the CHP sits on their bikes (or in their cars) under
highway overpasses during rush hours. Maybe they are escaping the heat.
However, any traffic moving - even at 25mph - slam on their brakes when
they see them and traffic continually backs up. Wouldn't be surprised if
the CHP doesn't cause some freeway accidents by their behavior.
Hey, don't blame the cops. They hate the fact that people slow unsafely but
they gotta be out there 8 hours a day.
Jeff Mayner
2008-05-17 09:21:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Turby
On Fri, 16 May 2008 12:09:36 -0700, "Jeff Mayner"
Post by Jeff Mayner
Post by Bob Mann
I've never seen a Nascar vehicle registered for street use.
I hve often dreamed of running one of those bad boys, sans decals, on the
local Southern California freeways.
That'd be fun. ;-)
I assume you don't mean during rush hour when it's a parking lot.
--
Turby the Turbosurfer
I'm up in Ventura now. Our stretches of the 101 are a bit different than
down south.

That being said, this dream goes way back to when I used to cruise the
freeways of the San Gabriel Valley in the 70's. Back then there were actual
rush "Hours" as opposed to the past 10 years when you now have rush
"Periods" and non-rush "Hours". :-)
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