The DMV motorcycle skills test circle diameter is only 25 feet

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

sqidbait

2005-03-13 02:06:44 UTC

Somebody, in another thread, asked for the dimensions of the rather
small circle at the end of the keyhole at a California DMV motorcycle
skills tests, so they could lay out such a circle in a parking lot

and

see what all the fuss was about amongst riders "unfortunate" enough

have to prove they can negotiate it.

[snip]

There is such a keyhole at the local DMV here in Cowpoop. If you rode
around the circle, and could stay in the exact center of the circle,

would be 25 feet in diameter. You would have approximately 12 inches

either side of the exact center, so the "zone" inside the 3-inch wide
white lines is *about* 24 inches wide.

Loading Image...

-- Michael

Bownse

2005-03-13 02:59:10 UTC

Permalink

Post by sqidbait

and

see what all the fuss was about amongst riders "unfortunate" enough

have to prove they can negotiate it.

[snip]

There is such a keyhole at the local DMV here in Cowpoop. If you rode
around the circle, and could stay in the exact center of the circle,

would be 25 feet in diameter. You would have approximately 12 inches

either side of the exact center, so the "zone" inside the 3-inch wide
white lines is *about* 24 inches wide.

[snip]
I live close to a CA DMV, so on my way to pick up some
dog biscuits for BarkMasterJ today, I decided to take some
snaps of the keyhole for y'all.
CBR600 included for scale. Pictures small to save bandwidth.
Out of focus 'cause I'm a lousy photographer.
http://home.earthlink.net/~sqidbait/offAxis.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~sqidbait/start.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~sqidbait/loop1.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~sqidbait/loop2.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~sqidbait/back.jpg
-- Michael

so, do you go up on the right side of the center dots, stay inside the
circle and then come back down on the other side?

--
Mark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX
http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org
"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's
just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan

krusty kritter

2005-03-13 05:58:43 UTC

Permalink

Post by Bownse
so, do you go up on the right side of the center dots, stay
inside the circle and then come back down on the other side?

I never had to do the keyhole to get my M1 endorsement, but the DMV
examiner will put orange cones on the white dots (or white crosses, in
the case of the keyhole I looked at), and the rider is required to
zig zag between the cones. Figuring out when to turn for each cone is a
trick in itself...

Jamin Kortegard

2005-03-13 05:49:42 UTC

Permalink

Post by sqidbait
http://home.earthlink.net/~sqidbait/offAxis.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~sqidbait/start.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~sqidbait/loop1.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~sqidbait/loop2.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~sqidbait/back.jpg

Nice that they border the outside of the keyhole with bushes and trees and
an 8" concrete curb. I'm sure that's not distracting at all for someone
taking the test. :)

--
Jamin Kortegard
2002 YZF-R1 / 2003 WRX

"Hokey 600s and trackday usability are no match
for a good literbike at your side, kid."
- Michael

Bruno

2005-03-13 13:07:56 UTC

Permalink

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 21:49:42 -0800, Jamin Kortegard

Post by Jamin Kortegard

Nice that they border the outside of the keyhole with bushes and trees and
an 8" concrete curb. I'm sure that's not distracting at all for someone
taking the test. :)

Why would any of that be an issue? You just ride between the lines.

--
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me
than a frontal lobotomy.

Bownse

2005-03-13 13:42:26 UTC

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Post by Jamin Kortegard

Nice that they border the outside of the keyhole with bushes and trees and
an 8" concrete curb. I'm sure that's not distracting at all for someone
taking the test. :)

Butt my question is if the dual lines are like 2 margins; the inner for
smaller bikes and the outer from larger bikes. The possibility that they
might make a track that a bike has to stay inside of would appear to be
an attempt to make the test overly difficult.

--
Mark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX
http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org
"A GPS doesn't stop me from getting lost, now, I just know Exactly how
lost I am." - Bruce Barge

Andy Burnett

2005-03-13 16:42:34 UTC

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Post by Bownse
Butt my question is if the dual lines are like 2 margins; the inner for
smaller bikes and the outer from larger bikes. The possibility that they
might make a track that a bike has to stay inside of would appear to be
an attempt to make the test overly difficult.

The idea is to keep your front wheel between the two lines during the test.

ab

Bownse

2005-03-13 23:58:42 UTC

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Post by Andy Burnett

The idea is to keep your front wheel between the two lines during the test.
ab

that serves no purpose then. like i said, i could see the inner line for
smaller bikes and the outer line for larger bikes. the small track
outline method appears to have no purpose other than to send people over
to pay for MSF.

--
Mark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX
http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org
"I only know because Google knows. You know that. Shut off the computer
and I'm dumber than a stump." - Andrew Duthie

Andy Burnett

2005-03-14 00:26:37 UTC

Permalink

Post by Bownse
that serves no purpose then. like i said, i could see the inner line for
smaller bikes and the outer line for larger bikes. the small track
outline method appears to have no purpose other than to send people over
to pay for MSF.

I think the DMV test is kind of silly too, but if a rider can't keep his
front wheel between those lines, he really does need more practice. There
are relatively few bikes that can't physically negotiate the circle.

ab

Tweak

2005-03-14 14:09:25 UTC

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Post by Andy Burnett

Mad parking lot skillz are critical.

--
Tweak

Shaft Drive

2005-03-25 21:56:27 UTC

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Post by Jamin Kortegard
Nice that they border the outside of the keyhole with bushes and trees and
an 8" concrete curb. I'm sure that's not distracting at all for someone
taking the test. :)

This photo looks like it was taken during off hours at the DMV.
During California DMV office hours the situation is much busier.

In the two DMV stations I practiced the keyhole in, not only were curbs
and bushes and parked cars surrounding the California DMV motorcycle
riding test keyhole, but, in one DMV, cars kept driving through during
the test within a few feet of the circle - during the test!

Of course, that's not what makes the test difficult.
The hard part isn't the curbs; it's the circle.

Stephen!

2005-03-26 01:39:42 UTC

Permalink

Post by Shaft Drive
In the two DMV stations I practiced the keyhole in, not only were curbs
and bushes and parked cars surrounding the California DMV motorcycle
riding test keyhole, but, in one DMV, cars kept driving through during
the test within a few feet of the circle - during the test!

Yah... That is *SO* unrealistic... There will never be bushes or curbs or
cars (parked or otherwise) within a few feet of your bike when you are
riding it for real...

--
IBA# 11465
http://imagesdesavions.com

Odinn

2005-03-13 13:32:52 UTC

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This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

Bownse

2005-03-13 13:44:10 UTC

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Post by Odinn

Post by sqidbait

and

see what all the fuss was about amongst riders "unfortunate" enough

have to prove they can negotiate it.

[snip]

There is such a keyhole at the local DMV here in Cowpoop. If you rode
around the circle, and could stay in the exact center of the circle,

would be 25 feet in diameter. You would have approximately 12 inches

either side of the exact center, so the "zone" inside the 3-inch wide
white lines is *about* 24 inches wide.

Holy shit, that's a bigass circle. Easy enough for my geezerglide to
float around in with no problems.

my thoughts too. the trick would be if they made the pair of lines a
track to stay between. a typical test like that would make the pair of
lines the outer edge of a smaller or larger bike (while also being a
reasonable test for anyone to be expected to pass).

--
Mark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX
http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org
"Trust in God... but tie your own camel." - Arab proverb

sqidbait

2005-03-13 19:21:41 UTC

Permalink

[snip]

Post by Bownse

Post by Odinn

Holy shit, that's a bigass circle. Easy enough for my geezerglide to
float around in with no problems.

I have prepared an illustration.

Loading Image...

My understanding of the test is as follows: you'll
be asked to start in either the left or the right lane.
You are to ride to the circle, make one complete revolution
of it, then come back down the opposite lane. ( So, you
really almost do two loops. ) The front tire must at all
times be within the two lines while in the lanes and
on the circle.

Note that the path I drew is a failure. It goes outside
the lines, as well as strays onto the fence - you must
also obey gravity, else you will be asked to come back
and try again on some future date.

-- Michael

Shaft Drive

2005-03-25 19:34:47 UTC

Permalink

Post by sqidbait
I have prepared an illustration.
http://home.earthlink.net/~sqidbait/highTechGraphic.JPG
you'll start in either the left or the right lane.
You are to ride to the circle, make one complete revolution
of it, then come back down the opposite lane. ( So, you
really almost do two loops. ) The front tire must at all
times be within the two lines while in the lanes and
on the circle.

That's only HALF of the California DMV riding test!
http://home.earthlink.net/~sqidbait/highTechGraphic.JPG

The first half consists of going thru the cones placed in the center on
those dots and then entering the 25 foot circle at the center and
making two loops and then leaving that circle in the center to go
through the cones again.

The part you showed above was the second half (based on my experience
watching about a half dozen riders take the test, most failing in the
first half, some, on smaller bikes getting to the second half to fail).

We need to advise the next guy who tries to take these tests so they
don't waste their first shot not knowing there is double that to do.

In addition, the California DMV riding test rules seem to be:
- The examiner chooses which direction you will travel for each half
- You must go in opposite directions than in the other half of the test
- You must not put your foot down at any time or you fail instantly
- The front wheel can't touch the OUTSIDE of the white line at any time
- If you drop the bike, you fail then and there

All 24 students in my class a few weeks ago passed the CA MSF riding
test.
In my opinion, none (including me) would have passed this CA DMV riding
test.

Shaft Drive

2005-03-25 22:03:27 UTC

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Post by Odinn
Holy shit, that's a bigass circle. Easy enough for my geezerglide to
float around in with no problems.

Betcha it's harder than you think.

You have to loop four times through a constant radius circle.
You have absoluty NO room for varying your radius.

Not only is it about 25 feet wide, but, your lane is limited.
You must not go outside that lane by even a half inch.

You must enter and exit the circle twice in the center.
You must enter and exist the circle twice at the edges.

You must enter and exit the circle from a straight run.
And you must enter and exist the circle from a weave.

Still think you can just "float around in with no problems"?

Odinn

2005-03-26 02:32:57 UTC

Permalink

Post by Shaft Drive

Post by Odinn
Holy shit, that's a bigass circle. Easy enough for my geezerglide to
float around in with no problems.

Betcha it's harder than you think.
You have to loop four times through a constant radius circle.
You have absoluty NO room for varying your radius.

25 ft is a very large radius. I can do that in 20 ft easily on my
geezerglide, someone more proficient than me can do it in 16, and I know
one guy who can do it in 12.

Post by Shaft Drive
Not only is it about 25 feet wide, but, your lane is limited.
You must not go outside that lane by even a half inch.

If you do a U-turn in my road and you go outside that 20 ft width, you
end up in a ditch or down in someone's front yard. 25 ft is very large.

Post by Shaft Drive
You must enter and exit the circle twice in the center.
You must enter and exist the circle twice at the edges.

This is simple, I don't see what the problem is.

Post by Shaft Drive
You must enter and exit the circle from a straight run.
And you must enter and exist the circle from a weave.

I still don't see what the problem here is.

Post by Shaft Drive
Still think you can just "float around in with no problems"?

Yes, I think I can do it with no problems on my almost 800 lb (1000 lbs
with me on it) 1450 CID geezerglide, and I'm not a great rider, but I
know I can do circles in 20 ft with no problem, so 25 ft is easy.
--
Odinn

"The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot
do." --Walter Bagehot

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

paulb

2005-03-13 19:41:39 UTC

Permalink

Forget the circle...

In Virginia, bring in a MSF Safety Course Certificate, and you don't need
no stink'in road test.

That's the way to do it!

Joey Tribiani

2005-03-13 23:22:54 UTC

Permalink

Post by paulb
Forget the circle...
In Virginia, bring in a MSF Safety Course Certificate, and you don't need
no stink'in road test.
That's the way to do it!

i took my road test here in Va about 15 years ago....i drove down a block
turned around and came back while a DMV agent watched...thats a pretty easy
test...LOL

paulb

2005-03-14 00:27:45 UTC

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Post by Joey Tribiani
i took my road test here in Va about 15 years ago....i drove down a block
turned around and came back while a DMV agent watched...thats a pretty
easy test...LOL

I should have said, VA DMV road test is still an option... they just waive
it with an MSF certficate.

Polarhound

2005-03-14 00:58:45 UTC

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Post by Joey Tribiani

Post by paulb
Forget the circle...
In Virginia, bring in a MSF Safety Course Certificate, and you don't need
no stink'in road test.
That's the way to do it!

i took my road test here in Va about 15 years ago....i drove down a block
turned around and came back while a DMV agent watched...thats a pretty easy
test...LOL

In MA, every registry can set their own test.

In Easthampton, the cones come out and you do a few circles and figure 8's.

In Westfield, there is almost no room, so the test consists of what you
went through in VA.

krusty kritter

2005-03-14 00:01:07 UTC

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Post by paulb
In Virginia, bring in a MSF Safety Course Certificate, and
you don't need no stink'in road test.

I just want a reasonable test, not Rube Goldberg deal devised by a
bureaucrat who doesn't ride and administered by a civil servant who
doesn't ride either...

Who knows what will happen in 2008, when my current license expires?

I might have to do the performance test to renew my license. What if
some F******o saltyback civil servant who never even rode a motorbike
in his life back in M****a decides to flunk me for crossing the yellow
line?

I never had to do the keyhole, it was waived because I showed up for
the test on a touring bike with Windjammer and saddlebags. The examiner
said to just ride back and forth in the parking lot to show that I knew
how to shift gears...

If I have to take the MSF course after I fail the CA DMV keyhole test,
my wallet will be $300 lighter. I could buy a set of tires for
my Yamaha with that money, instead of giving it to some "foundation",
which, regardless of whether it claims to be
"non profit", or whatever, my wallet would still be lighter....

paulb

2005-03-14 00:30:57 UTC

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Post by krusty kritter
Who knows what will happen in 2008, when my current license expires?

You have to Road Test again? That would be odd. Most states require fee
& eye test for renewal.

Anyway, I like the MSF option versus Road Test for the initial license
issue. I don't believe in road test or MSF for renewals.

krusty kritter

2005-03-14 00:34:31 UTC

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Post by paulb
You have to Road Test again? That would be odd. Most
states require fee & eye test for renewal.

With any luck, CA will automatically renew my license to drive a car
with the motorcycle endorsement, and I will never have to show up at
the DMV for the fifth or sixth time in a row...

With extremely bad luck, I will get into a serious accident,
and have my license suspended or revoked by the court and I might have
to go through all the written and performance tests again...

It's that automatical renewal process that ultimately led to that
senior citizen killing those people in Santa Monica about two years
ago. In a perfect world, he would have been grounded for the rest of
his life *before* he hurt somebody with his vehicular incompetence...

Having all senior citizens be required to pass a driver's performance
test at a certain age sounds great, until I realize that I will be 66
years old in 2008, and I don't want to be tested if I can avoid it, but
I do want to be able to pass the motorcycle test if I absolutely have
to...

Michael R. Kesti

2005-03-14 03:54:16 UTC

Permalink

krusty kritter wrote:

<snip>

Post by krusty kritter
Having all senior citizens be required to pass a driver's performance
test at a certain age sounds great...

I am of the opinion that all drivers, regardless of age, should be required
to prove that they are worthy of their driver's licenses on a regular basis.

--
========================================================================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
***@gv.net | - The Who, Bargain

paulb

2005-03-14 11:32:37 UTC

Permalink

Post by Michael R. Kesti
I am of the opinion that all drivers, regardless of age, should be
required to prove that they are worthy of their driver's licenses on a
regular basis.

The govt could subcontract the test, LOL!

Wife: "Whe're ya going honey?"

Me: "Down to Sylvan Learning Center to take my GRE, then a road test."

anyway..

I'd hate to see retests on a regular basis. Seems like a 100% solution to
get the 2% of the problem. How about mandatory retest for the following
events:

1. Turning Age 65, and every five years thereafter
2. Upon a reckless driving conviction
3. When your license accumulates more than X points

Andy Burnett

2005-03-14 00:29:05 UTC

Permalink

Post by krusty kritter
Who knows what will happen in 2008, when my current license expires?

Unless they begin skills testing again beyond a certain age I'd be
surprised if you have to take the test...

Post by krusty kritter
I might have to do the performance test to renew my license. What if
some F******o saltyback civil servant who never even rode a motorbike
in his life back in M****a decides to flunk me for crossing the yellow
line?

...but if you do, I'd be surprised if you flunk. It's really not that
hard.

ab

sqidbait

2005-03-14 19:31:18 UTC

Permalink

Post by krusty kritter

Post by paulb
In Virginia, bring in a MSF Safety Course Certificate, and
you don't need no stink'in road test.

I just want a reasonable test, not Rube Goldberg deal devised by a
bureaucrat who doesn't ride and administered by a civil servant who
doesn't ride either...

Of course, the big question is: what is a reasonable test?

Here's another interesting data point for this thread. I first
got my motorcycle licence in British Columbia, and then did
MSF when I moved to California. Details about the BC "MSF
equivalent" can be found here:

http://www.safetycouncil.bc.ca/p1.cfm

The BC course was more comphrensive than MSF. It comes in two
parts. Four days of classroom and closed course work, followed
by two days of real world training on the streets.

The final test? A one-on-one evaluation ride in the city.
The instructor tells you the route to take, and then follows
behind you while you do your ride. In my case, my ST1100 mounted
instructor had a voice recorder and took verbal notes of all
my weaknesses as I rode. I forget what the fail rate was, but
it must have been close to 50%. I barely passed.

-- Michael

Stephen!

2005-03-17 04:10:13 UTC

Permalink

Post by krusty kritter
I just want a reasonable test, not Rube Goldberg deal devised by a
bureaucrat who doesn't ride and administered by a civil servant who
doesn't ride either...
Who knows what will happen in 2008, when my current license expires?

Better start practicing now... Although that circle wouldn't be very
difficult on even the largest touring motorcycles, you seem to suffer from
a defeatist attitude and probably need the clutchwork anyway...

--
IBA# 11465
http://imagesdesavions.com

krusty kritter

2005-03-17 06:00:14 UTC

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Post by Stephen!
Better start practicing now... Although that circle wouldn't
be very difficult on even the largest touring motorcycles,
you seem to suffer from a defeatist attitude and probably
need the clutchwork anyway...

Detailing the problems of dealing with unreasonable English-challenged
immigrant bureaucrats administering the rider skills test at
California's DMV doesn't necessarily mean that I have a defeatist
attitude, it means that California's civil service system is corrupt,
as is well known...

After all, the governor *was* recalled, and the Terminator now occupies
his office. But that doesn't solve the problem of incompetent immigrant
civil servants who have unreasonable power over honest American
citizens...

It isn't just healthcare that is flooded with immigrants from one
particular country. It only takes one member of a specific immigrant
group to get into a DMV office job, and once he or she is in there, the
whole office staff will be of immigrant origin in just a few years,
they will bring the whole clan in there, and see nothing wrong with the
nepotism involved...

Back to the problems of slow speed circling...

Several years ago, I noticed that I have a distinct aversion to turning
to the right. I found myself going down the street, and u-turning to
the left, so I could come back up the street and make a wide turn to
the left instead of turning tightly to the right...

I studied the problem, researching it on the web, and I found an
article by Keith Code, in "Keith's Corner" that confirmed that *many*
sportriders are uncomfortable with right hand turns...

And MSF instructors said that beginners had a lot of problems
coordinating the twisting motion of their wrist with the pulling motion
of their arm while starting out from a stop sign where the intent was
to turn right...

Compounding the problem is the fact that the steering feel of a
motorcycle changes rapidly from very heavy in some cases to rather
light, after the motorcycle has moved only a few feet...

Not that the non-motorcycle riding immigrant DMV examiners know
anything about the problems facing motorcycists, they are just there to
administer the test...

Many newbie riders will roll stop signs in order to avoid coming to a
complete stop and having to wrestly with the handlebars and go through
all the contradictory wrist/arm motions...

And sportriding is bad for the rider who does that form of riding a
lot, since low speed handling is seldom necessary, it's just leave a
parking lot, ride at high speed to another parking lot, and then back
to the first parking lot, but there's no 25-foot diameter circle the
rider has to stay inside of...

So sportriders get little or no slow speed practice, and it shows, when
you see a guy on a $10K literbike "duckwalking" it in a parking lot
because he doesn't feel confident with the feel of the bike at a
walking pace...

Stephen!

2005-03-17 07:59:17 UTC

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This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

Saddlebag

2005-03-17 10:30:44 UTC

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Post by krusty kritter
Detailing the problems of dealing with unreasonable English-challenged
immigrant bureaucrats administering the rider skills test at
California's DMV doesn't necessarily mean that I have a defeatist
attitude, it means that California's civil service system is corrupt,
as is well known...
After all, the governor *was* recalled, and the Terminator now occupies
his office. But that doesn't solve the problem of incompetent immigrant
civil servants who have unreasonable power over honest American
citizens...
It isn't just healthcare that is flooded with immigrants from one
particular country. It only takes one member of a specific immigrant
group to get into a DMV office job, and once he or she is in there, the
whole office staff will be of immigrant origin in just a few years,
they will bring the whole clan in there, and see nothing wrong with the
nepotism involved...

Hey, hey, hey, what's with all this political talk? Gubment got your
panties in a bunch there kbar? Still mad at Phil Scott for attempting to
do more than just complain about it?

krusty kritter

2005-03-17 16:43:57 UTC

Permalink

Post by Saddlebag
Hey, hey, hey, what's with all this political talk? Gubment
got your panties in a bunch there kbar?

Yabbot, I'm working on a different strategy than Phil is using.
My approach is that, if ya can't fight 'em, and can't avoid 'em, then
join 'em, at least for a while...

So my next step is to import a bride from Southeast Asia and have her
teach me the best ways to backstab other people and also give me some
pointers on how to bribe civil servants. I will have a head start over
the slow leaners who don't realize the advantages of being two-faced in
the American society of the next few decades...

But before I marry my Southeast Asian Venus, I will be sure to set up a
prenuptial agreement so she'll get nothing of mine when she decides to
desert me and marry one of her own kind, having gotten the green card
she so desperately wanted...

********************************************************************

Ambition is like a venus fly trap. If a frog were to sit on it, the fly
trap could bite and bite but it wouldn't hurt the frog because it only
has tiny little plant teeth. Then some other stuff could happen and
that would be like ambition. - Jack Handey

*********************************************************************

Reassembler

2005-03-18 18:05:41 UTC

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Post by krusty kritter

Post by Saddlebag
Hey, hey, hey, what's with all this political talk? Gubment
got your panties in a bunch there kbar?

How old are you now, Bubba? You're starting to sound like a Depression-era
detective novel. Fu Manchu and Charlie Chan. Christ.

Reassembler

Chuck Rhode

2005-03-19 18:57:13 UTC

Permalink

Reassembler wrote this on Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:05:41 -1000. My reply
is below.

Post by Reassembler

Post by krusty kritter
So my next step is to import a bride from Southeast Asia and have
her teach me the best ways to backstab other people and also give
me some pointers on how to bribe civil servants. I will have a head
start over the slow leaners who don't realize the advantages of
being two-faced in the American society of the next few decades...

How old are you now, Bubba? You're starting to sound like a
Depression-era detective novel. Fu Manchu and Charlie Chan. Christ.

Yes, Charlie Chan *is* a racist artifact.

"These films are a travesty. Not once in any Charlie Chan movie does
the title character do kung fu while flying through the air as we all
know genuine Orientals do. Don't you realize how insulting it is to
Asians see a Chinese man portrayed as friendly, warm, intelligent,
having a good sense of humor, clever, wise, and good to his family?"

[DrGrood, Interplanetary Administrator. "No More Charlie Chan!" The
Serial Squadron, the WWW Movie and Radio Cliffhanger Serial Fan Club
N. seq. (30 June 2003): 1 pars. Online. Internet. 19
Mar. 2005. Available
http://p078.ezboard.com/fmovieserialmessageboardsbcrimeanddetectivefeatures.showMessageRange?topicID=140.topic.]

--
.. Chuck Rhode, Sheboygan, WI
.. 1979 Honda Goldwing GL1000 (Geraldine)
.. 1978 Honda Goldwing GL1000 (Fenris)
.. http://www.excel.net/~crhode/RockyGnashtoothsWeather/
.. 34°F. Wind NE 17 mph. Cloudy. Light snow. Mist.

Troy

2005-03-26 08:41:54 UTC

Permalink

I use a small bike for this, Honda XL125.
I can turn that thing around in a 10 foot radius.
You can pretty much lift it in the truck yourself.
(All though I use a ramp)
I keep it around just for this reason.

Troy,
news:1110756298.858232.173570

Post by Stephen!

bob prohaska

2005-03-27 02:08:58 UTC

Permalink

Post by Troy
I use a small bike for this, Honda XL125.
I can turn that thing around in a 10 foot radius.
You can pretty much lift it in the truck yourself.
(All though I use a ramp)
I keep it around just for this reason.

Perhaps the rules have changed, but last time I checked
a 125 was an m2 machine; I believe the test must be
passed on a 150 cc or larger machine to get an m1 license.

bob prohaska

Troy

2005-03-27 02:48:07 UTC

Permalink

Not in my state of Nevada. There's only 1 mc here.
there is no license needed for anything less, a moped, etc.
No license or insurance needed.

Troy,

Post by bob prohaska

Perhaps the rules have changed, but last time I checked
a 125 was an m2 machine; I believe the test must be
passed on a 150 cc or larger machine to get an m1 license.
bob prohaska

Troy

2005-03-27 03:10:11 UTC

Permalink

I just looked at my license.
Let me correct myself.
Motorcycle and moped are the same license = M
But you only need a learning permit to operate a moped and no insurance is
ever required.
So basically you can use a moped with no insurance to get your motorcycle
license in the state of Nevada.
Fact,

Troy,

Post by bob prohaska

Perhaps the rules have changed, but last time I checked
a 125 was an m2 machine; I believe the test must be
passed on a 150 cc or larger machine to get an m1 license.
bob prohaska

y***@yahoo.com

2005-03-25 14:15:52 UTC

Permalink

Post by krusty kritter
I have to take the MSF course after I fail the CA DMV keyhole test,
my wallet will be $300 lighter. I could buy a set of tires for
my Yamaha with that money, instead of giving it to some "foundation",
which, regardless of whether it claims to be
"non profit", or whatever, my wallet would still be lighter....

Don't think for a second the MSF isn't raking in millions on this scam.
They get their bikes for free but they don't work for free.
This CA DMV motorcycle test scam is a self perpetuating industry.

Hundreds of otherwise productive people are employed in this scam.
It keeps a lot of DMV examiners in business to fail each motorcyclist.
Then it takes thousands of MSF ridercoaches to subsequently pass them.

Think of it all as a modern-day democratic work relief program.

s***@aol.com

2005-03-25 15:00:53 UTC

Permalink

Post by y***@yahoo.com
Don't think for a second the MSF isn't raking in millions on
this scam. They get their bikes for free but they don't work
for free. This CA DMV motorcycle test scam is a self
perpetuating industry.
Hundreds of otherwise productive people are employed in this scam.
It keeps a lot of DMV examiners in business to fail
each motorcyclist. Then it takes thousands of MSF ridercoaches
to subsequently pass them.
Think of it all as a modern-day democratic work relief program.

It's sort of like the traffic school scam and the civil "service" scam.
We have to do *something* to absorb the immigrants into the melting
pot...

Last time I went to traffic school was maybe 1998 or so. Traffic school
was in a rundown motel in Hollywood. It was administered by Armenian
refugges whose parents had probably never driven a car in their lives.
So they are first generation of Armenians that ever drove, they have no
history or knowledge of road courtesy or innate repects for the law.
They think that they are rich because they have a car, only the very
rich people had cars in the former USSR, so they think they can drive
any way they please...

Coming from a former Soviet Socialist Republic as refugees, they *hate*
the government, but socialism is all they ever knew, so they don't mind
working for our state government in a make work scam like a traffic
school...

Civil "service" is another scam that immigrants and refugees like the
Armenians and Filipinos get into. It only takes one "anchor immigrant"
in a civil service office, and pretty soon the office is full of people
that have little or no experience in American culture, have little or
no respect for the dignity of traditional Americans, and could care
less about failing somebody on a driving
skills or motorcyle skills test...

Like the Armenians, the Filipino test examiners are unlikely to have
ever driven a car or motorcycle back home, and know nothing of the
physical capabilities of the average large motorcycle that is popular
today. But they are quite willing to flunk somebody who has ridden
motorcycles for decades if their front wheel strays outside the
boundaries of that unreasonably tight circle...

Iggy

2005-03-26 01:46:22 UTC

Permalink

Post by y***@yahoo.com

Don't think for a second the MSF isn't raking in millions on this scam.
They get their bikes for free but they don't work for free.
This CA DMV motorcycle test scam is a self perpetuating industry.

Blah...blah...blah....want a hanky?

Tim Morrow

2005-03-26 04:37:19 UTC

Permalink

Post by y***@yahoo.com

Don't think for a second the MSF isn't raking in millions on this scam.

Why shouldn't we think that? They're not.

Post by y***@yahoo.com
They get their bikes for free but they don't work for free.

You do realize that the MSF is an industry sponsored organmization that receives
its funding from the profits of its participating corporate entities, don't
you? As such, it is a money-losing organization.

Post by y***@yahoo.com
This CA DMV motorcycle test scam is a self perpetuating industry.

The California DMV is supported by taxpayer dollars and has nothing to do with
the MSF.

Post by y***@yahoo.com
Hundreds of otherwise productive people are employed in this scam.

What scam are you talking about?

Post by y***@yahoo.com
It keeps a lot of DMV examiners in business to fail each motorcyclist.

Have you actually given what you are writing any thought?

Post by y***@yahoo.com
Then it takes thousands of MSF ridercoaches to subsequently pass them.

Right, and all those rider coaches have quit their day jobs and are getting rich
on the 401(k) proceeds from their weekend teaching gig.

Post by y***@yahoo.com
Think of it all as a modern-day democratic work relief program.

I prefer to think, in which case, it's simpler just to dismiss your paranoid
ravings.

Or, are you just bitter because you failed a test?